11: No Expectations: Healing the Family Dynamic

Jessica Armstrong (00:00):

Welcome to the Good Enough Podcast, a podcast that takes you into a new realm by inviting you to reduce your daily hustle and celebrate yourself right here.

McKenzie Raymond (00:14):

Tune in as we dive deep into vulnerable topics and interview guests who deliver transformative moments to you, our community of individuals healing on a collective journey.

Jessica Armstrong (00:25):

We’ll open up to the art of embodied self-care, and even on the days that you feel like a self-sabotaging rebel …

McKenzie Raymond (00:32):

We’re here to remind you that in this realm, we are all good enough.

McKenzie Raymond (00:35):

Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Hey, Jessica, how are you doing?

Jessica Armstrong (00:44):

Hi, McKenzie, good. So happy to be here.

McKenzie Raymond (00:48):

I’m really excited to dive into our topic today. We are going to be discussing healing family dynamics, and how sometimes being with our family and in relationship with certain people can be difficult and triggering. And so, we’re going to share about our own personal experiences today, and hopefully, leave you feeling a little lighter about maybe your next interaction.

McKenzie Raymond (01:16):

So, Jessica, I would love for you to just kind of kick us off.

Jessica Armstrong (01:22):

Absolutely. I really love talking about this because I think it’s an uncomfortable conversation. I think that especially a lot of our millennial sisters, but really, younger generations and above have experienced different kinds of inability to really stay balanced when it comes to being around family.

Jessica Armstrong (01:46):

And when I say family, this can really be anybody that you consider to fall under this category of someone who’s uniquely connected to you, let’s say. Typically, this means you’re blood-related or you’re adopted or you grew up in a family, in a household together, but everybody defines family differently. So, I just want to put that out there.

Jessica Armstrong (02:12):

For me, I was raised in a pretty normal middle-class family. Mom stayed at home, dad worked, three daughters. We lived in a nice neighborhood with other kids and all of that. And it was great, especially to have a lot of neighborhood children.

Jessica Armstrong (02:33):

And I think when I look back too, the real issues that I started noticing at the time when I was able to recognize that things weren’t feeling well, was more in my teenage years, probably pre-teen in teenage years. And now, in therapy of course, patterns I’ve found have started earlier than that.

Jessica Armstrong (02:55):

But the ones that when I was really starting to be in it, and even as a teenager, I started feeling the anxieties and the depression and mixed with the hormones and uncontrollable emotions. And I’m mentioning this because it’s interesting how different of a dynamic that all of a sudden becomes when you start entering into becoming a woman or these hormone changes.

Jessica Armstrong (03:25):

I moved around a lot. So, even changing to different schools and having to meet other people when you’re going through this, ultimately, it requires a lot of support. And I think when we’re growing up, our parents do the best they can with what they have.

Jessica Armstrong (03:45):

My parents were young when they had us and I couldn’t imagine being a parent in my twenties. So, I do understand that. However, the thing when it comes to learning how to cope with your emotions, learning how to address them, learning that they’re okay, because that wasn’t something that we really were shown or had conversations around …

Jessica Armstrong (04:14):

Often when we did show high emotions, it was met with really uncomfortableness, and so we ultimately felt guilty or shameful, like, “Oh, this isn’t how we act.” And for me, I know that I can say for myself, it created this almost silencing, I felt like I couldn’t show any emotion or anything. So, I internalized so much.

Jessica Armstrong (04:42):

And that ultimately got me into trouble outside of my home in my teenage years as well, and put me in situations where I didn’t really know how to make the best decisions because I didn’t know how to manage all of the stuff going on inside.

Jessica Armstrong (05:01):

And you come to this time in your adulthood that all of this really piles up. And for me, it really came to a head when I had been years into abusing alcohol. Once I became sober and started going to therapy and different healing modalities and really starting to connect more with myself and finding out kind of how I got here. Because I think that’s like, “Why am I so depressed and so anxious and feel like I can’t function in the world?

Jessica Armstrong (05:39):

Sometimes, I don’t know if you ever feel like this, but sometimes I would feel like a child in an adult world. And I’m like, “How am I 28 years old, and I still feel like I am 12?” It’s like my mindset was just so far back. There was this whole section of my life that was in such despair, that I just hadn’t evolved enough. I hadn’t given myself the chance to learn about myself.

Jessica Armstrong (06:12):

And then when you get to that point where you are and you’re learning a lot about your past and coping skills and what creates anxiety and depression, it kind of opens up this whole new world. And now, you have a whole different type of connection to your family than you did.

McKenzie Raymond (06:32):

And I definitely resonate with, I mean, so many of the things that you said. I think specifically around noticing even at a certain age, maybe things that happened or things that you can notice now that you maybe never really did process through, you silenced, or you felt shameful and guilty for showing emotions, so then you kind of stifled it or the thing that was happening.

McKenzie Raymond (06:58):

And then this was actually some of the work that I was introduced to with the IFS, and my mentor would interweave it with yin yoga, and it was just so good. And so, she would almost have us revisit these different parts of ourselves as we’re in these really healing, nurturing poses. And I gained a lot from just remembering those times.

McKenzie Raymond (07:26):

And I think too, it’s maybe without that nudge of support, whether it’s from a mentor, a teacher or a therapist, it can be really hard to go to these places again because our subconscious has done pretty much everything it can to protect us and not have us do that.

McKenzie Raymond (07:50):

And so, I think just knowing that leaning on support or hiring someone to help you or however that looks for you so that you can revisit these things in nurturing and supportive way. Because I feel like it’s just kind of like when I revisit these things, I’m almost stirring up these old things and then more comes up.

McKenzie Raymond (08:16):

And then I notice in how much it impacts me energetically or emotionally outside of a session, just like in my real life or something will come to me because I was thinking about this other thing and I have this whole other revelation about something that maybe I never realized wasn’t quite right or could have been maybe more supportive.

McKenzie Raymond (08:38):

And so, I think being able to find a place within yourself where you recognize how worthy and deserving you are of moving into a better feeling, and then doing what you need to get that support so that you can kind of revisit these painful parts because it isn’t easy and it’s not all just positivity and rainbows, it can be deep and dark, and so, yeah.

Jessica Armstrong (09:08):

That is such a good point because I know we always love to reiterate that it is a process and it does take time. And I love IFS because my relationship with doing the process is very strong, I really enjoy it. So, I get really excited when I can dive into these deep dark places.

Jessica Armstrong (09:30):

But when I first started therapy and I was really just doing it with somebody who was a counselor and had training in a drug and alcohol addiction, so it seemed really appropriate. And it was, and she was great, I saw her for a very long time.

Jessica Armstrong (09:50):

She was the one who really started to awaken in me, because of how I was treated in my environment and how the lack of support that I had when I was going through my growing pains really, that’s why I am how I am now or how I was then, or how I got into even getting into this part where I was using alcohol in the way that I was. And to have that understanding was so precious.

Jessica Armstrong (10:24):

At first, that that was like (and it still is) — but at first that was the initial thing, was like, “Wow, that it’s so good to have some validation around the fact that I’m still this wonderful person that I have always been. She’s just been lost and kind of stuck in this space of before everything kind of hit the fan.”

Jessica Armstrong (10:48):

And when I say hit the fan, it’s really mostly because of the lack of support and my misunderstanding of my emotions, how to manage them, how to cope with them, and how to navigate difficult situations I was put in. So, because of trauma that came from that, the alcoholism really kept me in a place of guilt and shame because I had never thought that it wasn’t me.

Jessica Armstrong (11:18):

I never thought that it wasn’t because I wasn’t good enough. I was doing something wrong. Apparently, I just wasn’t even meant for this world. Like some dark shit, honestly, that I would say to myself, and even though I wouldn’t necessarily believe that deep down, I had no connection at that point. And if I wasn’t drinking my anxiety, my depression was out of control.

Jessica Armstrong (11:47):

And I know I’m kind of going off track a little bit here, but I’m bringing it back to the fact that when you do start learning about yourself and the next thing that you really realize is that your parents aren’t necessarily kind of who you had built them up to be in your mind, and that they’re human. And that we all have things that we’ve brought along with us.

Jessica Armstrong (12:15):

Somebody once told me, because often, I think we overuse the idea that our parents did the best they can with what they had. Because I hate to say that to everybody because ultimately, we all deserved better.

Jessica Armstrong (12:31):

And yes, some of our parents did do the best they can, they did with what they had, and sometimes maybe they just probably didn’t do the best. And that’s okay too. I mean, what we’re doing now is we’re accepting so that we can heal and move forward.

Jessica Armstrong (12:49):

And to me, that was what was really important. But having that initial door open and kind of having to reevaluate my relationships within my family, my immediate family was very difficult. It took a lot of time to get through. It’s something I still work on.

McKenzie Raymond (13:13):

Yeah, definitely.

Jessica Armstrong (13:16):

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Jessica Armstrong (13:42):

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Jessica Armstrong (14:01):

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Jessica Armstrong (14:25):

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McKenzie Raymond (14:42):

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McKenzie Raymond (14:46):

You brought up acceptance and that was the first thing that I heard as you were talking about when you were first getting into your kind of journey and going into therapy and first learning that, “Oh, it wasn’t all you,” it was more, it’s like all the things that have also happened and these traumatizing things.

McKenzie Raymond (15:06):

And I think acceptance in my own journey has just been so huge because without acceptance, I wouldn’t be able to move from that place of even recognizing like, “Wow, I really have been just numbing my emotions” or actually acknowledging that I had grown so distant from myself.

McKenzie Raymond (15:25):

Now it’s like as someone who doesn’t use alcohol, I think one of the things that I notice most is even if I were to just have one cocktail, it’s like I’m immediately disconnected from that secure, safe place within myself. And I feel like everything around me becomes louder and just more chaotic.

McKenzie Raymond (15:51):

And I think just having acceptance of really how distant I was back then when I was abusing and there’s definitely been a lot of forgiveness I’ve had to give myself, but being so disconnected from my own true essence and just sometimes not even knowing what I was doing, being blackout or whatever was going on.

McKenzie Raymond (16:17):

And I think for me, that’s probably one of the things that has the dynamic that I have with alcohol is so closely related to the dynamic I have with my family as well. Because I come from a big family. My mom has six siblings, my dad’s an only child, but it’s always like any family event, there’s like 30 cousins. It’s super fun and there’s always drinking too.

McKenzie Raymond (16:47):

And that was always something I feel like whether it was just watching a Packer game or having a pool party, or 4th of July, whatever, Christmas it was like, “Oh, what’s the fun cocktail?” Or it was like that was a way to connect. And so, that was one of the things as I was becoming what I call sober curious, I’ve been on my own journey of sobriety where I haven’t necessarily just said like, “No, never again.”

McKenzie Raymond (17:15):

But this year, we’re more than halfway through the year and I’ve had one margarita on a salsa night when we were learning how to salsa dance. And I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to have this margarita and feel really good about it.”

McKenzie Raymond (17:29):

And so, the dynamic though of how my relationships changed as I changed my relationship to alcohol, and I think something that I have witnessed is the power of when I can show up in my own truth and say, “Oh, if everyone’s having mimosas in the morning, yeah, I’ll have a flute with orange juice in it.” And I love to have a substitution, I love to have a mocktail. I love to still be sipping on something that helps me a lot.

McKenzie Raymond (18:03):

But I think something that I’ve noticed is just how those family dynamics have shifted a little bit and maybe, the whole game night now isn’t centered on who can get the drunkest, and some of my other family members who love their cocktails and craft beer choosing like, “Oh, I think I’ll try the mocktail or just grab a soda water in between.”

McKenzie Raymond (18:28):

And I think that’s been really powerful for my own journey. Like for me to see not only the ripple of my own actions and how I may be positively just planting a seed for others, but it reminds me, even in these difficult dynamics that sometimes by just being me and being so different than them, that that is the best thing that I can do. And that even in that, maybe I am in some way inspiring some change or some positive change in some way.

Jessica Armstrong (19:04):

Yes. I love you so much because you just really gave me kind of a way to look at it in that sense as well. Because when I stopped drinking, it was really hard at first because my whole life was kind of surrounded by people who drank, and like you mentioned as well, like family gatherings, holidays, always a lot of drinking.

Jessica Armstrong (19:27):

And it was even part of the whole list of who’s bringing what, there was always a concern about making sure you had alcohol for parties. And the more, the longer I’ve gone not drinking, which has been a lot easier than I think a lot of people can realize. Because I understand the pressure of wanting to drink or going to places or FoMo even. Like if you’re not there, you don’t want to miss out, but there’s drinking. But honestly, once I stopped, you really are so much clear.

Jessica Armstrong (20:07):

And then when you spend time with some of these people in those older atmospheres, maybe it doesn’t feel as good as it used to. It just doesn’t fit the way that you want to. And hopefully, those friends and family members who love you can find ways to do things with you soberly. And I have found that to be true with certain people.

Jessica Armstrong (20:32):

There are some relationships obviously that I lost but probably just wasn’t necessarily a close relationship anyways. And when I moved to Colorado, some of that went away as well. But with my family, I’ve noticed, my sisters and I can spend so much time together and they don’t drink around me.

Jessica Armstrong (20:54):

I don’t think it’s that they’re not wanting to because they think it’ll offend me, I think it’s that they’re fine choosing that option because it’s a safe space. With me, you don’t have to, you don’t have to drink if you don’t want to. If you don’t want that hangover tomorrow, hang out with me and we’ll still have a good time, and you’ll feel fresh-faced in the morning. And so, it’s nice to see that.

McKenzie Raymond (21:18):

I so cherish when I can be with people like that. When you come visit or some of those other dynamics that I have where it’s like, “Oh, yeah, if anything, we might be getting up and going to a yoga class in the morning because we went to bed early or whatever.”

Jessica Armstrong (21:34):

Right. Yes. Yeah, it’s just different ways of living. And I also think society pushes alcohol a little bit too much I would like to say, if not excessively. So, kind of back to this, it really brings us, so what do you do when you go on holiday, and you’re with family or you’re going to a sporting event? That was a big thing.

Jessica Armstrong (21:59):

It was going to the tech games and tailgating and I mean, you were drinking all day, that was the thing. That was just what you did. And I think there’s been a little bit of shift in that, but a lot of us are still going to find ourselves in situations.

Jessica Armstrong (22:18):

And this isn’t even just related around the alcohol being around, but any triggering stuff because of all those things that we did go through with our family while we were growing up and creating memories and abilities and skills, and triggers and patterns that are not good for us.

Jessica Armstrong (22:38):

And then we start realizing that it had a lot to do with our upbringing or maybe so we already knew. And that can, even after you’ve healed and maybe you’ve forgiven and accepted, when you are around, like when I go back home for example, I get real triggered a lot easier, and it’s why I don’t do it very often.

Jessica Armstrong (23:01):

And it’s interesting because I don’t ever crave drinking, but when I do go home, not so much the last couple times, but the time before that, it’s like this cravings came back and I was like, “Oh, this is weird.” It felt real weird and I was like, “Man, no wonder I used to drink.” It’s already I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I need something help me cope with this energy that is not vibing with mine.”

Jessica Armstrong (23:29):

So, I think that’s ultimately what happens, is it’s very easy to have some old triggers and patterns pop up when you’re around family, especially like in my case when I’m not around them all the time. And I’m always trying to work to make that less so because I want to feel good and I want to give off good energy there.

Jessica Armstrong (23:50):

I don’t want to come to it with bad negative energy just knowing it’s going to go wrong or knowing I’m going to get triggered. I would love to hear because I’ve really learned a lot from you when it comes to staying in that, what I like to call your flow, kind of where you feel balanced and good and in your space, you’re feeling good enough, you’re feeling enough, your enoughness.

Jessica Armstrong (24:17):

What do you like to use before, during, even after to kind of help you feel good during that time?

McKenzie Raymond (24:29):

Before we get too much farther along in today’s episode, I want to do a brief check-in and ask our listeners a few powerful questions. I’m curious if any of you are currently feeling stuck in your personal or professional life, struggling with self-doubt or feeling lost as you search for a deeper sense of purpose.

McKenzie Raymond (24:46):

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McKenzie Raymond (25:10):

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McKenzie Raymond (25:30):

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McKenzie Raymond (25:53):

Yeah, definitely. I think something, getting really clear with myself and studying kind of an intention for the time that I’m having with my family or a specific person helps me. I think in those, I definitely think so many of us can relate to going back to your hometown or being back in a relationship and it’s just immediately, we’re back. All of a sudden, it’s like, I forget who I was. I just forget everything and I’m like, “Oh, I’m back in this dynamic. Like, “Oh no.”

Jessica Armstrong (26:32):

So true.

McKenzie Raymond (26:32):

So, I think something that helps me definitely is I think in the acceptance I’ve also had to accept that there are certain things that I may just not connect with these people on, and that we live very different lives. And to the extent that with some of these people, I would not even choose to probably be associated with them at all if we didn’t have some kind of familial tie tying us together.

McKenzie Raymond (27:03):

And I think that something that helps me is to be able to check in with myself, what do I need? So, sometimes, if someone is triggering me and they’re on a whole ‘nother level at the baseball game, I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to go just walk around,” or it might be creating some space.

McKenzie Raymond (27:23):

I think also in a situation where maybe it’s like, “Okay, you’re already there, you’re already in it,” and maybe it’s even gone to the extent where you’re like, “Okay, now, we’re talking about something that I’m getting uncomfortable about …”

McKenzie Raymond (27:38):

And something that has really truly helped me is just being able to honor that my truth and their truth might be just so different and that they can both be true. And it’s not necessarily our job to combine them or meet in the middle, it’s just like we can be on totally different ends of the spectrum, and that’s okay and we don’t have to agree.

McKenzie Raymond (28:06):

And I think it’s a respect for myself to set a boundary and sometimes I notice it’s the other person who’s bringing up the things and then I’m like, “Okay, again, that can be true for you. This isn’t true for me.” And that’s usually when I create that space.

McKenzie Raymond (28:21):

So, yeah, those are just a few of the things that help me. I feel like for some time I kind of put this pressure on some of the relationships in my family because they were family and I was like, oh, I had this expectation of what it was supposed to be like or whatever.

McKenzie Raymond (28:43):

And again, coming back to the acceptance again and again and again and just accepting that, “Okay, this person is in my life and we are maybe totally different in that I also get to form these amazing, vulnerable, raw connections with other people too.” Like women in retreat or a cool girl in a yoga class.

McKenzie Raymond (29:05):

And I think knowing that yes, family is family, but it doesn’t mean you have some beautiful relationship or I think for a long time I realized recently that I had been putting this pressure kind of on those dynamics and then it’s hard not to show up and not be disappointed.

McKenzie Raymond (29:27):

And so, recently, what I’ve done is I have gone into the experience with absolutely zero expectations. And I will say the most recent time that I did that, it was probably the best, one of the best family interactions I’ve had, I was feeling really good because I was still taking care of myself, teaching yoga, taking on clients, taking care of myself.

McKenzie Raymond (29:56):

And then it was like, “Okay, they were just filling in kind of almost at my convenience,” and that felt really good for me. Where in the past, I probably would’ve cleared my schedule, done everything I could to be 100% with them, and then I would’ve been like, “Oh, why am I annoyed?” It’s because there’s no balance. So, yeah, that has definitely helped me recently, the no expectations thing.

Jessica Armstrong (30:24):

I love that.

McKenzie Raymond (30:25):

It was honestly fun. As I was doing it and I was just like, “I don’t even care.”

Jessica Armstrong (30:31):

It’s just going to be whatever it is, and you’re just going to bring yourself as you are and just let it be. Yes, I love that. I think the no expectation is a good way because your growth here is like … It’s like you start with having these really bad expectations, you’re just dreading it.

Jessica Armstrong (30:53):

So, you’re leading up this whole time to the inevitable disaster that you’re going to have because you just know, you already know it’s going to be such a disaster. So, that’s usually how you start. And then what happens is, you feel completely unbalanced. You’re just waiting for the shoe to drop.

Jessica Armstrong (31:10):

You’re like, “When’s it going to happen?” You’re annoyed by every little thing. So, really, you leave feeling drained. I mean, I’ve left when I’ve come to things with those kind of expectations because I didn’t know any other way to come, but to be prepared and worried that it was going to be awful. So, would leave feeling sick and exhausted and just terrible about the whole thing.

Jessica Armstrong (31:38):

And then I of course, would turn that inward, that negativity inward, and I’d be like, “How could you have done this better?” All this stuff. So, now you’re going in with expectations where you’re just going to visualize it being great. It’s just going to be wonderful.

Jessica Armstrong (31:53):

You’re going to come in, you’re just going to be your best, and it’s just going to be great. And then you’re going to manifest that. Well, then you go and you’re maybe showing up your best, but they’re not showing up the way that you wanted them to show up.

Jessica Armstrong (32:09):

So, now, you’re becoming resentful and frustrated and disappointed and that’s how you leave. And then you leave blaming them, and then you’re kind of saying, “Hey look, I was right. I did show up as my best self.” And then they showed up and just proved me right.

Jessica Armstrong (32:30):

However, we’re still leaving feeling really uncomfortable, really sad. Like there’s nothing positive that came out of that. We are not learning more about ourselves. And I’m not saying that maybe they are just not people that you need in your life and you need to separate them out, sure.

Jessica Armstrong (32:51):

Like for me, for example, part of it is really wanting to understand how I can actually show up in a way that I can stay within my boundaries and like you said, allow them to be who they are and how we both can be — we both can have our own truths and we don’t necessarily have to agree or compromise on anything, or all around certain things. We can just be and enjoy what we can.

Jessica Armstrong (33:25):

And ultimately, you’re going to know what works best for you. But I hope to have close relationships with each one of my family members, or at least, the best that I can. And since I still feel like there’s that space and I know that I’m still learning to be a better version of myself as well and showing up in those relationships.

Jessica Armstrong (33:46):

So, now, next time, I’m going to go without any expectations because I love that idea. Because they can show up how they’re going to show up. I’m going to show up how I’m going to show up because there’s no way to even prepare for that.

Jessica Armstrong (33:58):

I mean, every day is a new day and I can never know how I’m going to even be. Sometimes, I’ve had to learn how to cancel things because I literally just can’t, I can’t do it. I’m like, “I have no energy to go to this appointment or have this meeting.” And usually, it is a response of like, “Great, that works fine, let’s reschedule.”

Jessica Armstrong (34:22):

It’s taking that away. It kind of comes back to that self-accountability idea of just really deciding what you can do for yourself to keep you in feeling balanced. And it’s really not allowing the other person’s response or abilities or whatever they’re providing to affect that, which ultimately, they’re never going to be able to make that happen for you.

Jessica Armstrong (34:49):

It has to be a strong inner force. Which it’s already there. It’s hard to pull out when you haven’t had that ability to do that, to practice that growing up.

McKenzie Raymond (35:02):

So, like setting that intention. So, your intention next time is going in with no expectation.

Jessica Armstrong (35:08):

No expectation.

McKenzie Raymond (35:09):

And I’m excited to hear how it goes

Jessica Armstrong (35:11):

It’s so good.

McKenzie Raymond (35:13):

I wanted to even touch on the flip side of going in with worry and dread because I’ve also gone into family situations — like I love my parents so much and I love my family time and getting to be with my cousins and they’re all back in Wisconsin, so it’s always special when I get to be with my family.

McKenzie Raymond (35:36):

And I recognize how sometimes I would have high expectations too. And that would set me up for failure just the same. Because it’s like, oh, then if it didn’t go my way just the same, I would end up just feeling like, oh, it wasn’t enough, or whatever that was.

McKenzie Raymond (35:55):

And I think that the more that we become aware of our own selves and these tendencies and we do our healing, it can become sometimes harder to show up in the spaces with the people who maybe we feel aren’t doing that type of work. And so, I think it can just become that much more apparent and triggering.

McKenzie Raymond (36:19):

And so, that’s also part of the practice where I really believe that the healing work that I’m doing and the person that I’m becoming, that it is rippling out past just me. And that what’s healing my whole lineage in some senses, like rippling out.

McKenzie Raymond (36:40):

And that there’s this kind of responsibility too in that of like, I am choosing how I want to show up in the world and who I want to be. And it doesn’t even matter if they understand it or agree with it. But yeah, I think being clear and feeling confident in myself in that sense before going into the situation.

McKenzie Raymond (37:05):

So, setting that clear intention so that when I am in that difficult situation or I’m finding myself disappointed or whatever, I can remember, “Oh, well, what was my heart in it for.” Oh, well, moving into no expectations came from me having a really hard time and learning about myself and recognizing that I was putting all this pressure on relationships.

McKenzie Raymond (37:33):

And then I was able to go, “Oh, okay, I’m going to do it different next time and I wonder how that will be different.” And so, yeah, I think time with family and family dynamics is maybe one of the most potent ways to learn about yourself.

Jessica Armstrong (37:51):

A hundred percent. And that was so beautiful. And what a great example of having a family that you love and connect with already, but can still have some of that. Because I think we put more pressure on our family members, those people who are the closest to, the ones that we feel judge us the most — whether they are or not, that’s what we’ve decided.

Jessica Armstrong (38:16):

And so, we put more pressure on them on their healing journey, to get healed, to get better because it affects us so directly. And that’s why earlier when you mentioned how you can develop these relationships outside of your family, like you and I both are big fans of the sisterhood and getting together and collectives at retreat, for me, that’s been always been so powerful and transformative. And I have women that I’ll be friends with forever because of that.

Jessica Armstrong (38:47):

And they’re always on all these different journeys. And I think being able to sit with them and listen and share our stories and respecting where they are on their journey and reminding myself of how I was when I was there and how it — because we ultimately, have to be able to be on that ourselves. So, we have to give that same respect to our family members regardless of where they are on their journey.

Jessica Armstrong (39:13):

And perhaps they haven’t even started it. Maybe they’re on their way, but they’re not quite where you are and that’s okay. I think we are all trying to figure it out, but it’s that enoughness, it’s good enough for the collective. Whatever, the fact that we are showing up at all is important and being able to learn more about yourself is such good stuff.

Jessica Armstrong (39:37):

And that’s going to just be practicing, having that mindset that when you are around family and things are feeling yucky and you start going into those old patterns of running away, fighting or saying really hurtful things to people — I know family members can really get you where it hits pretty bad; those things that we do to each other and to ourselves that are harmful. When being more aware of those, and then you can start asking those real questions.

McKenzie Raymond (40:15):

I’m so glad you brought up the enoughness and the reminder that really our job, no matter what, is to love ourselves and also to love them right where they are. And that it’s not about saying, “Hey, get to where I am.” Because then you’re really not honoring them and their truth or their space, but it’s about just saying, “I love you right where you are.”

McKenzie Raymond (40:40):

And I think in that, when my family did that for me when I was struggling with addiction and having some of my darkest days, it’s like that acceptance was what brought me to knowing that there wasn’t shame or guilt around what I was choosing to do and the path that I had taken.

McKenzie Raymond (41:02):

So, I think when someone else can provide that too and say, “We love you anyway …” And that just opened the door for a different way where I was like, “Oh my gosh, okay.” All this shame and this resentment and all of the buildup and it’s not as rigid as it feels, it just feels like a big exhale to be loved right where you are.

Jessica Armstrong (41:25):

And isn’t that ultimately what we’re looking for when we’re growing up as children, I think? And a lot of us aren’t finding that until later, until we’re in adulthood and we’re really coming to terms with where we are and how we want to move into the future.

Jessica Armstrong (41:41):

And yeah, I think if I had felt more of that acceptance and love for who I was just as I was and kind of given that space to just be me, that would’ve helped a lot in that phase of going from being a teenager at home to an adult with my own responsibilities.

Jessica Armstrong (42:06):

I’m not upset at the way that my life went because of where I am now and the knowledge I can share. But yeah, ultimately, I think that’s what we as humans need from the beginning. Love and acceptance right from the time we’re part of this family and that’s what we ultimately are always looking for.

McKenzie Raymond (42:29):

Yeah. And remembering too, I feel it’s not our fault that in the past maybe we weren’t provided that love and acceptance of like, let’s say it’s a certain emotion and that it led to wherever we are now on our journey. But being able to just almost see the gift in even the painful moments because it did bring you to where you are today.

McKenzie Raymond (42:54):

And so, yeah, I feel sometimes it’s like you got to go through it to be able to heal it and transmute it into something that is a powerful part of the journey. Transmute it, let it become part of your transformation and-

Jessica Armstrong (43:14):

Love it. Love the pain. We don’t want to shame the pain, we want to love it. Because even though it hurts, it’s providing us something, it’s waking us up. It’s providing us another layer of insight.

McKenzie Raymond (43:30):

Absolutely.

Jessica Armstrong (43:33):

McKenzie, this was as always such an amazing conversation. I know that this topic can hit differently for everyone and can be difficult. So, we are happy that we’re able to share and can’t wait to hear what you all think. Again, McKenzie, it’s always such a pleasure.

McKenzie Raymond (43:52):

Thank you for sharing all of your perspectives and your stories and your vulnerability. The more that we can connect in this way too with one another and with our audience, I think we can let the healing be deeper as well. So, yeah, just to have the safe space to talk about things like this is truly so healing on an individual and a collective level. So, thank you for your time.

Jessica Armstrong (44:17):

Thank you.

McKenzie Raymond (44:23):

We know this time is precious to you and because we are insanely joyful that you are spending it with us, we always want to deliver authentic vulnerability and dive deep into what we are feeling as a collective.

Jessica Armstrong (44:35):

Our intention is to bring you stories and guests that provide you the opportunity to discover aha moments so you leave our conversations feeling lighter and knowing what you do today will be good enough.

McKenzie Raymond (44:49):

We love to connect, follow us on social media by following our handles linked in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, rate, review and follow The Good Enough podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, or your favorite podcast listening app, so you never miss an episode.