15: Clarity: Navigating the Holidays Sober

[Music Playing]

Jessica Armstrong (00:00):

Welcome to the Good Enough Podcast, a podcast that takes you into a new realm by inviting you to reduce your daily hustle and celebrate yourself right here.

McKenzie Raymond (00:14):

Tune in as we dive deep into vulnerable topics and interview guests who deliver transformative moments to you, our community of individuals healing on a collective journey.

Jessica Armstrong (00:25):

We’ll open up to the art of embodied self-care, and even on the days that you feel like a self-sabotaging rebel …

McKenzie Raymond (00:32):

We’re here to remind you that in this realm, we are all good enough.

McKenzie Raymond (00:38):

The views expressed on this episode as with all episodes of The Good Enough Podcast are solely host and guest opinions.

Jessica Armstrong (00:45)

This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice and is for entertainment purposes only.

McKenzie Raymond (00:53):

Hey everyone, it’s McKenzie here. We’re back again with another exciting topic. Hello, Jessica? How are you?

Jessica Armstrong (01:01):

Oh, good. I’m starting to feel the cool weather, little chill. I’ve got my sweater on.

McKenzie Raymond (01:07):

My gosh, I love it. Like nothing makes me happier than my down slippers.

Jessica Armstrong (01:12):

Yes.

McKenzie Raymond (01:13):

Feel like I could wear them now that we’re like moving into fall, the leaves are falling off the trees.

McKenzie Raymond (01:18):

So, I am so excited about today’s topic. I feel like this is something that both you and I have really connected on since we first met. It’s just something that’s a big important part of both of our lives.

McKenzie Raymond (01:35):

And the topic that we’re talking about today is sobriety. And I would say like specifically one of my intentions with choosing this topic is talking about both of our journeys with sobriety and also, really how we have navigated the holidays and gatherings with friends and family when there is oftentimes that societal pressure to indulge.

McKenzie Raymond (02:03):

And I know for myself, usually in the past, it would be not finding that enough line in indulging too much.

McKenzie Raymond (02:13):

So, yeah, super excited to dive in with you today.

Jessica Armstrong (02:18):

Absolutely. This is definitely near and dear to my heart. Being sober from alcohol for seven years now, almost eight, is something I’m really proud of. But of course, it’s a journey in its own.

Jessica Armstrong (02:36):

And where I am now with my relationship with that time of my life is really different. It’s much stronger. I see my time with alcohol as something I needed to survive at the time.

Jessica Armstrong (02:52):

However, it took a lot to get here. And I think with the holiday season approaching us and this need to be inside and gather with family and friends is something that feels traditional, but it also feels like our calling during this time. Like it’s what we need to do.

Jessica Armstrong (03:16):

And I often wonder if maybe the alcohol use is more prevalent around that time because of what all it entails with this time of year, with who we have to be during the holidays, who we have to be around perhaps. Maybe these are people who we don’t have necessarily a strong relationship with.

Jessica Armstrong (03:41):

Is this a time where we’re starting to judge ourselves more? We’re out and about and people are asking us what’s next, and where we’ve been, and how we are. And it’s this over-and-over thing that we’re trying to express in a way to show everybody that we’re fine.

Jessica Armstrong (04:01):

And often, that comes with the needing to cope or for me, it was definitely finding some way to feel comfortable. And I had to drown out all of the things that came along. The anxiety and the negative loop in my brain.

Jessica Armstrong (04:27):

And having to answer these same questions all the time and having to be just around the people who I often felt the least enough about myself when I was around.

Jessica Armstrong (04:39):

So, alcohol for me allowed me to feel better, and looser, and calmer, and I felt like I could fit in, and I could joke and I could get past the things that were really coming at me at the time.

McKenzie Raymond (04:55):

Yeah. Like just exactly what you were just describing with like what alcohol provided for you. Like to me, it just reminded me of, it gave me this like total false sense of confidence. Like I wasn’t actually feeling what I needed to feel.

McKenzie Raymond (05:12):

I was using alcohol to almost become like my excuse where I was like a victim to whatever happened because I was probably blackout or whatever.

McKenzie Raymond (05:22):

So, yeah, it wasn’t actual confidence. It was like this way that I was hiding behind this thing to not be confident, to not feel, to not be truly in touch with myself or other people.

McKenzie Raymond (05:35):

And really as I reflect back too, just like seeing how surface level a lot of those relationships were at that time in my life.

McKenzie Raymond (05:43):

Before we get too far ahead though, I want to pause and acknowledge you for your sobriety journey and just say thank you for being such an inspiration.

McKenzie Raymond (05:55):

As someone who dreams of being sober, I think you are the evidence of what can happen and I think staying true, like you are such an inspiration to be able to almost have evidence of like how you used to be and who you used to be and to look now.

McKenzie Raymond (06:24):

And I think it’s just important to like pause and acknowledge because yeah, it’s really amazing and I know it’s been a lot of work. And so, I want to just acknowledge you.

Jessica Armstrong (06:37):

Thank you. Oh my gosh, that feels really good. I know for me, I have really, even from the start wanted to have more confidence about being open and vulnerable around my struggles.

Jessica Armstrong (06:53):

And being able to do that and talk to people and being able to allow others to be open with me about their struggles and even whether it was themselves or someone in their family has really given me better insight into my relationship with alcohol.

Jessica Armstrong (07:13):

And through the different healing modalities I’ve been through, I really know that I’ve worked hard to get to this point, and I really love to share what I do, what’s helped me, and what I’ve been able to find out.

Jessica Armstrong (07:30):

Because a lot of that stuff, it’s not technique. I’m not somebody who counts the days or goes to AA meetings. For me, it was finding a deeper-seated issue that was going on and I really had to find myself love.

Jessica Armstrong (07:52):

That was what it was. I mean, that was what I knew I needed to do. I was drinking to survive. I had to quit drinking, find my self-love in order to thrive.

Jessica Armstrong (08:06):

And that’s really what’s important to me and what I want others to realize also about addiction, drug or alcohol use. Even just addiction of anything that really takes you from reality and is something that becomes obsessive for you.

Jessica Armstrong (08:29):

For me, alcohol had started off as a way for me to cope with not feeling good enough. That was learned very early on in my childhood.

Jessica Armstrong (08:43):

And then when my teen years with sexual trauma and having to deal with that and not having really any support to talk about those things. And really being internally beating myself up because you were, at that time in school, you were hearing girls talking and boys talking about how girls who sleep with men are the problem.

Jessica Armstrong (09:12):

And it’s this constant stuff that you’re surrounded by that just creates this self-hate in a way. I don’t like to use that term because I love myself so much now that it feels almost so painful to think that, but it’s true and it’s dark.

Jessica Armstrong (09:33):

And alcohol for me was a great way to feel like I could get through the day. That if I had a social event, that I could enjoy it. That people would see me as this other person.

Jessica Armstrong (09:52):

And since I had never really taken any time to really get to know myself, I could be anybody I wanted to be. And that was pretty powerful, especially when I felt more functioning.

Jessica Armstrong (10:06):

And of course, that eventually stopped when nothing that had initially created this need and what I know now is my firefighter part, the alcohol would come in the second I would start having negative feelings or needing something to take me away from what was going on.

Jessica Armstrong (10:32):

And so, it just perpetuated and eventually I could not not be drinking. And then it was really monitoring how to feel just normal through the day and making sure I had enough alcohol on me for the day. And that would cause anxiety in itself.

Jessica Armstrong (10:55):

I mean, and this was now, I was in probably my late 20s when it was really my darkest place. And I had many times where I knew I was ready to be done and move on, but it had me hooked for a while.

Jessica Armstrong (11:14):

And it wasn’t until I moved away and found a new group of people, my now husband. I was somewhere where I was able to be healthier and more motivated and creative.

Jessica Armstrong (11:31):

And that really helped me decide when my inner self, my inner Jessica was like, “I’m ready to be sober. Come on.” I was in the place and I knew I had support to get through it.

McKenzie Raymond (11:47):

Absolutely. Wow. I so relate to so many of the things that you’ve shared and I so appreciate you for just so beautifully articulating that. I think a lot of our listeners are going to just get a lot out of what you just shared with us. So, thank you so much for your vulnerability and your sharing.

Jessica Armstrong (12:06):

Of course.

McKenzie Raymond (12:09):

For myself, like alcohol definitely was this thing that I like experimented with as a teen and it was just like this societal thing. I saw my parents, like my dad loves his craft beers and IPAs and their Packer fans, like whatever.

McKenzie Raymond (12:24):

Now, I can see that like so many of the events were kind of just like excuses, like reasons to drink. But while I was in it, I couldn’t really see that. And so, I think it was just like this thing I wanted to experiment with. It was like cool to be drunk or like it was fun too.

McKenzie Raymond (12:44):

Like I mean, it was fun to experiment, to feel that, to get that little buzz. But then somewhere along the line, as I went off to college and continued to experiment, it did turn much darker where it became like this hold.

McKenzie Raymond (12:58):

And something that I reflect on now is, it is so wild to think about like the effort and the energy that I would put into drinking or like when you were explaining like making sure I had enough alcohol for the day.

McKenzie Raymond (13:12):

Like for me, what that reminds me of, it’s like I would not only have to make the plans, reach out to the people who could also be there to drink with me, I would have to figure out like how was I going to get home? Or maybe not even home but like where was I sleeping that night? Because who knows?

McKenzie Raymond (13:30):

Like there were so many unknowns and I would put so much energy and effort into like a single night out where actually all of the unknowns now, it’s like just even thinking back to that, it causes me great anxiety to be like, “Oh my gosh, I was just like throwing myself out there.”

McKenzie Raymond (13:48):

And like I think too just, I know that at a lot of those times in my life, like I definitely had some angels and guardians protecting me because there were situations like before I was 21, I got three underage drinking tickets. I mean, I was in college, everyone was doing it. I spent a night in jail.

McKenzie Raymond (14:14):

It was almost like a badge of honor in our friend group. Like, oh, if one of us didn’t make it home, it’s like check the hospitals and the jails. And it was almost like this like funny thing like, “Oh my god, she spent the night in jail and like of course we’re going to like laugh about it.”

McKenzie Raymond (14:29):

And I think just at that time I went to court-ordered rehab, but it really was just like that’s where it ended. Like I wasn’t ready to take responsibility or accountability for my actions yet. And I was like, “I’m in college.”

McKenzie Raymond (14:44):

And I think another part of that that was difficult is that a lot of the people who were in that program with me were way worse off than I was.

McKenzie Raymond (14:53):

So, it was hard to find that balance where I’m like, “Okay, where do I fit in?” Where there’s someone who’s like maybe addicted to something for years or like they’ve been in and out of treatments and I think just like the intensity where I was able to almost just like I was in denial, brush it off, not take responsibility. I’m like, “I’m a fun, like party girl.”

McKenzie Raymond (15:16):

And I definitely too associated with like that as my identity. So, then I was like, “Well, who the heck am I if I’m not this fun crazy party girl who’s confident and wild?”

McKenzie Raymond (15:29):

And so, that was a whole ‘nother next step, like layer. This is over years, where then I’m like, “Okay, so who am I?” And starting to really get honest with myself about my priorities and the choices that I was making.

McKenzie Raymond (15:47):

I think at that time in my life … one of our guests said recently I just got sick of my own and at a certain point I did, I got sick of my own and I really had to just start looking at things very black and white.

McKenzie Raymond (16:02):

And be like, “Okay, this choice that I’m making tonight Thursday night, am I going to go thirsty Thursday and like do whatever or am I going to like choose the other option?”

McKenzie Raymond (16:13):

And I think just having that like integrity with myself, having that own awareness to be able to even do that and like that was once I had actually owned and not like just totally denied that I had a part in this. I really had to like yeah, decide and make those choices.

McKenzie Raymond (16:34):

And it became easier when I think I had a different choice to make. So, like for instance, having a yoga class the next morning.

McKenzie Raymond (16:44):

So, I think like that brought me perspective of remembering when I was in that time where I could almost like blame whatever it was in the morning and be like, “Oh I have a yoga class at 9:00 AM,” or like whatever choice I was making.

McKenzie Raymond (16:57):

And it made it easier to make it through like the sobriety part if I had like something else that felt like bigger or more important to focus on.

Jessica Armstrong (17:10):

I love that so much. The way that you shared that too from the beginning of it because our relationship with alcohol, it’s kind of those things that you don’t know until you know.

Jessica Armstrong (17:24):

And even when you’re sitting there and you’re in a maybe an AA that was court ordered, I had to do that after a DUI. And you’re sitting there and you’re young and it’s still kind of fun and you still think that this is just part of you being young, it hasn’t become your identity yet.

Jessica Armstrong (17:46):

And so, you’re there and you’re surrounded by people. I know there was one gentleman who had had throat cancer and he had to hold the space where there was the hole while he spoke.

Jessica Armstrong (18:02):

And I just remember thinking like, “This isn’t me. Like I’m not at this point.” Not knowing that these people were at the same point I was at some point thinking that this is just part of me being young.

Jessica Armstrong (18:19):

And so, in that, we can’t feel ashamed or guilty around that because it’s so socially accepted. I mean, you mentioned events. Sports events, my goodness.

Jessica Armstrong (18:36):

Like I probably started drinking at those when I was 16 years old. It was just a whole day drinking thing. Especially like at the college football games and the tailgating and it didn’t matter that the game was at 10:00 AM.

McKenzie Raymond (18:54):

Oh my gosh, you don’t even have to be 21 to drink in Wisconsin with your family. Like it was like, “Oh, Packers are on, everyone’s drinking.”

Jessica Armstrong (19:02):

Yeah, yeah. It’s like that’s what you do. And it’s our society has created this. I mean, the companies, the advertisements, it’s been going on for a long time.

Jessica Armstrong (19:13):

So, it’s become socially acceptable, especially for those who are young and in college. And for many of them maybe it doesn’t become a problem, but I guarantee it becomes more of a problem for more people than we think.

Jessica Armstrong (19:29):

And because like the things you mentioned, it’s a badge of honor. It’s something for you and your friends to get together and talk about and the negative aspects of it, getting up in the morning and saying, “Man, how are you feeling?” Oh, who’s feeling more hangover?

McKenzie Raymond (19:46):

And how fast can we get a mimosa? Hair of the dog.

Jessica Armstrong (19:50):

Yeah, hair of the dog. Yeah, let’s start drinking again. And then it becomes our identity. We start identifying ourselves as the party person. “Ooh, we always want Jessica at the party because she is so fun. She’ll drink anybody under the table.”

[Music Playing]

Jessica Armstrong (20:08):

We must take a brief pause to let you in on a very special gift. We are partnering with Goddess Retreats to bring you an exclusive offer because, well, you deserve it.

McKenzie Raymond (20:20):

Yes. Retreating is so powerful. I love gaining perspective as I take time away from the rhythm of my daily life to be present and intentional around my healing. I find that I always come home with a renewed commitment to my self-care.

Jessica Armstrong (20:35):

Yes. My time in Ubud, Bali with Goddess Retreats was powerfully transformative and it has provided me with a lifetime of goodness. I was able to reconnect to my own wisdom and self-love through guided temple walks, sound bathing and so much more, as well as a forever sisterhood.

Jessica Armstrong (20:53):

The awe-inspiring sanctuary and the incredible hosts give you permission to receive the spiritual-giving nature of Bali and its people.

McKenzie Raymond (21:03):

Goddess Retreats is not just about recognizing our strengths as women but also about healing, self-discovery, and growth. That’s why we wanted to collaborate with them in hopes of seeing you have your own transformative experience.

Jessica Armstrong (21:17):

Visit goddessretreats.com to plan your trip. Mention you are a good enough goddess during booking and get $100 off the retreat package that aligns best with you. You’ll also be able to find this link in the show notes as well as at thegoodenoughpodcast.com.

McKenzie Raymond (21:34):

Who knows, maybe we’ll see you there.

[Music Playing]

Jessica Armstrong (21:39):

Then you come down to this point where you find yourself really lost in it and it isn’t until you do … I love this had a different choice to make. And now, I’m not saying that all along the way we all maybe had the opportunity to take a different road.

Jessica Armstrong (21:57):

I think about the night I got my DUI often, there were multiple things that could have steered me off of even going out that night and I didn’t listen to them. I was 21 at the time as well. And so, that’s another thing. I mean to me, again, I was young and I was like feeling invincible.

McKenzie Raymond (22:24):

Oh yeah. And I know when I’m in that state of like rebellious invincible, I am totally not open to the signs. I’m like, “I am on my way. I’m already drunk in the car. I’m going.”

Jessica Armstrong (22:36):

“I’m going regardless. Sorry, universe, I’m on my way. I can’t miss out.” And yeah, it becomes part of you. Oh, but yes, this idea of choice, for me, it was I think I had many times where it was like almost made for me.

Jessica Armstrong (22:56):

And the last time after I had come back from this Alaska trip where I’d had time to really be in nature and be away from alcohol and away from my life at home and get perspective. Then I came back and I lost my job due to my drinking problem.

Jessica Armstrong (23:19):

And it was all kind of just really coming together for me and I was really hitting that kind of rock bottom. And thankfully, I was able to make a decision for myself then to move away and it was the best decision.

Jessica Armstrong (23:41):

It still took time of course, but it brings me back to what this holiday thing is that my first holiday back home once I was sober felt very difficult. It had been a few years since I had been sober before I went back. I think it had been like two years. So, I’d had some time with it and was very proud of myself and happy with it.

Jessica Armstrong (24:14):

But I was excited to be home for the holidays because I hadn’t been able to be home in the holidays because of the job I was working in Colorado at the time. So, I was really excited to be able to do that. And yeah, it was very interesting. I almost got the feeling that I used to get when I wanted to drink.

Jessica Armstrong (24:40):

And now, when I got sober, I was very thankful that I haven’t had a need to drink since. I really haven’t had that drive, like it just doesn’t come up. But when I was there it did this craving for it.

Jessica Armstrong (24:59):

I was like, “Oh.” It felt spooky weird. Like it made me feel sick to my stomach. And it was all because like the things that were happening with us staying at my dad’s and just the family stuff.

Jessica Armstrong (25:15):

And trying to be sober and trying to take care of myself in that way, I didn’t feel like it fit into the home and into the celebrations and so all that. And I was trying really hard because it was important to me.

Jessica Armstrong (25:34):

And there was so many triggers that it was really, really hard to get through and I had to really take a step back and learn a lot about that whole thing. It taught me a lot as well and had me start to even dig a little bit more into my addiction and how to navigate those triggers and stuff.

Jessica Armstrong (26:02):

But it was a scary thing and relapsing is real. It is one of the realest things when people were trying to get sober. And I got to feel really what that felt like because I had never technically relapsed because I was only sober when I tried to be sober maybe like a couple days.

Jessica Armstrong (26:22):

But when I really got sober, that would be a real fear of mine. Two years down the road and I relapse. It’s scary and it happens all the time and this is why.

Jessica Armstrong (26:34):

I mean, you have to realize that the way that you show up in those places and the way that you are able to is important to get that kind of in line before you go. And maybe if it’s something that is too much, there’s other times to visit.

McKenzie Raymond (26:56):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, the whole story, like I want to just highlight that you started that with like now, you could see that in hindsight everything was coming together at the time in your life. At a time that you’re describing as like one of your lowest points.

McKenzie Raymond (27:12):

So, I just want to like reiterate that like honestly at that point in your life, you probably were like, “What is this shit show? Like everything’s happening at once. I’m losing my job, I’m moving across the country.” Like all of these things are just like crumbling it feels like around you as I heard that.

McKenzie Raymond (27:33):

And to hear you even say now, it was all coming together and I knew exactly what you meant but like I could feel the crumbling at the same time. So, I’m like, “Man, I know it didn’t feel like that though. I knew it felt like a shit show.”

Jessica Armstrong (27:50):

Yeah, it felt like I was trying to find the life raft.

McKenzie Raymond (27:53):

Yes. But yeah, I’m so glad you brought up like the family dynamics and I think your explanation of like how it felt as you revisited that place, I think it’s really wise of you to give yourself two years to be able to like build up kind of that stamina and that foundation so that you could feel confident and strong in your decision.

McKenzie Raymond (28:18):

And I think too, like you were putting yourself right back in the environments that were most triggering, or that were most irritating, or that made you want to drink most. And so, how natural of you to want to gravitate towards that thing again because that was the pattern, that was what you always did.

McKenzie Raymond (28:40):

And I also think like there’s another layer to this and as we move back into these environments with individuals that we have pasts with, being able to show up in this new way I think can be triggering to them as well because it really challenges them in a new way to look at the relationship the two of you have, look at the effects that alcohol has on both of you in your relationship.

McKenzie Raymond (29:10):

And so, I think in our own choices of deciding to go home and stand strong in our sobriety, we’re kind of like, I feel like I’m like stirring the pot a little bit sometimes because I’m just like, “Okay, like this might make someone a little bit uncomfortable.”

McKenzie Raymond (29:29):

Or really now, what I can see from a bigger perspective is that it’s interrupting their habit or their expectation. Maybe it’s like, “Well, man, I thought we were going to just get wasted like we do every Christmas.

McKenzie Raymond (29:42):

And I think like really what I’ve learned and come to realize is that like my true, honest, authentic, raw vulnerable connections, those people, those supportive loved ones are going to stand near me no matter what.

McKenzie Raymond (29:59):

And even if it is like a little bit awkward or uncomfortable, especially at first, those people will be there at the end to come through in some way I think.

McKenzie Raymond (30:11):

In my own experience I have a sister and my parents who are still happily married and very much in love and so, like it’s rare that we have all been together for Christmas.

McKenzie Raymond (30:24):

But this past year, I had moved and we made a trip home and I had decided ahead of time that I was going to be sober for that time and just continued to practice my sobriety.

McKenzie Raymond (30:38):

And so, I think for me something else that really helps is like creating that action plan, just like making that commitment to myself before I’m in the environment so that I know what my like expectation is kind of.

McKenzie Raymond (30:54):

And really what I noticed was how … now, granted, it has been a couple years that I’ve been kind of sober curious. So, I feel like my loved ones are now a little more warmed up to this.

McKenzie Raymond (31:08):

But I did witness people around me maybe even like indulging less but it was their thing. Like there was no expectation that they did that. We didn’t even have a conversation about it but it was just something I noticed. Like instead of having a beer every time maybe switching off between that beer and the soda water. I noticed it.

McKenzie Raymond (31:31):

And I think too when we go into these environments and we’re being that sober person, that kind of solid ground, it does like invite other people to show up in a more vulnerable, raw way.

McKenzie Raymond (31:49):

And I honestly think that that’s like one of the reasons that you and I have felt or I’ve felt so connected to you like since really the first time meeting you just even knowing that you have past with alcohol and you’ve been on this journey. It immediately opens the door for like some deeper understanding and just this deeper connection.

McKenzie Raymond (32:13):

So, yeah, I think creating an action plan and also, knowing that even if my loved ones aren’t ready to like show up and be sober with me, like I’m not asking them to do that. But just knowing that the way that I’m showing up is impacting my collective even if it’s the couple of family members around me in a positive light I believe.

Jessica Armstrong (32:38):

It’s such a good point too because I think we need more examples of that around us sometimes. It’s like, well, I’ve had a lot of examples of people drinking to enjoy themselves at parties and what about examples of people who are enjoying themselves being around each other and company without that.

Jessica Armstrong (33:04):

And since I have been without alcohol for a long time, I’ve been able to find more and more people that I can be around to, are not looking or needing to go out for a drink to feel like they can be in conversation or open to doing other things.

Jessica Armstrong (33:26):

Although like you, I do typically … and another reason yeah, why I am so connected to you is because we can talk about these things because I think we’re both looking to evolve our in ourselves and learn.

Jessica Armstrong (33:41):

I think a purpose here I know that I find is learning more about myself and this experience that I’m having as a human with all of these other humans, getting to know why we become this way, how we can navigate better, how we can accept the way we are and how things that we had to do to survive are not shameful and shouldn’t be seen that way.

Jessica Armstrong (34:12):

And I think that can be a big trigger when it comes to family and friends who were part of that time that you were drinking. There’s the shame and guilt that’s really tied into the time that you’re abusing, even if it’s not something … like I think everybody has their own level of abuse when it comes to using alcohol.

Jessica Armstrong (34:41):

For me, it became an all day everyday thing to just even monitor my feeling okay through the day. But even if it’s just binge drinking or feeling like you can’t not drink. That’s when people who show up like we do, are actually providing an opportunity to anybody who wants to, to come and sit with us on this more solid ground.

Jessica Armstrong (35:14):

And we don’t have to have a deep conversation. I’m always open to that. I always love to go there, but we can also, enjoy and just have a chat about everything that’s going on in our lives and have tea, or do craft, or art, whatever you’re feeling, a hike.

Jessica Armstrong (35:35):

The big thing for me that I wanted to point out because I know that there’s uncomfortableness on both sides and the person who’s showing up and they want to take care of their sobriety but are worried about the reaction and how the people around them are going to be.

Jessica Armstrong (36:03):

And perhaps those people are not ready to provide you the support, understanding, and care that you deserve. That doesn’t mean that you have to change yourself or that you have to compromise your healing for them to feel better or to comfort them.

Jessica Armstrong (36:24):

I have found in my uncomfort, my uncertainty when I’m faced with fears and opportunities, and I have to make these decisions to move forward and adapt and evolve. That’s something that I really do well in the times that I’m faced with these uncomfortable transformative moments.

Jessica Armstrong (36:54):

And if we don’t allow people to be able to be in that space on their own, then we’re really taking that away from them as well as getting in the way of our own personal healing.

Jessica Armstrong (37:10):

And I think that’s where we need to understand is that we can all be on our own journey of healing. And even when it doesn’t feel right at times when you’re coming and maybe your family is not appreciating the fact that you just want to drink coffee all day because that’s what you need to survive this visit.

Jessica Armstrong (37:32):

I mean, if they’re not able to give that to you, it’s okay that they’re not there. But that doesn’t mean that you have to stay there. It doesn’t mean that you have to change your habits or change what’s working for you just to appease them because I know that’s what happened a lot for me and probably was another big trigger towards the drinking.

Jessica Armstrong (38:00):

You can always give yourself permission to leave. You can give yourself permission to say, “Hey, I think I’m just going to go to bed for the night.”

Jessica Armstrong (38:08):

Or permission to talk to them and just say, “Hey, if you’re open to it, I would love to explain to you why this is so important to me. And if you’re open, I would love to see how we could find a way that would make it more comfortable for us.”

Jessica Armstrong (38:28):

And if the family members even if they’re not willing at the time, maybe they’re willing down the road, but the ones that do love and care about you will find a way to support you.

Jessica Armstrong (38:39):

And you shouldn’t have to change what you’re doing for yourself because right now, you’re the one who’s healing and it is hard. It takes a lot of energy. You don’t have a full cup at this moment to give them any of your energy.

Jessica Armstrong (38:56):

So, make sure you’re looking at those options and make sure you’re doing what’s best for you.

Jessica Armstrong (39:02):

And for family members who are uncomfortable around it, if you want to know, ask them how you could set up a more comfortable space for them.

Jessica Armstrong (39:15):

I mean, I often would come to parties or family events with tea already. Now, I’ll call ahead and be like, “Hey, do you have a teapot, like a tea kettle that I can use? Or something to warm up hot water?” I try to prepare ahead of time.

Jessica Armstrong (39:35):

And this also gets people more in a routine as well. They know when you’re coming to have some tea available. I don’t want anybody to change anything about that. But if you’re going to have beer for your guests, I think it’s okay to provide tea as well.

McKenzie Raymond (39:55):

Absolutely.

[Music Playing]

Jessica Armstrong (39:58):

Before you continue on with that thought, I’d love to take a moment to talk to you about the bliss-inducing elixir that we’ve both become quite familiar with. I’m talking about the heart opening drink, cacao.

McKenzie Raymond (40:11):

Yes, my love, Cacao. Cacao is the superfood and also, the purest form of chocolate. The ceremonial drink has been used by Mesoamerican civilizations in sacred ceremony for thousands of years.

McKenzie Raymond (40:24):

In fact, cacao’s considered to be of divine origin and the cacao tree was often reverted as a conduit between heaven and earth.

Jessica Armstrong (40:33):

In addition to the spiritual significance of cacao, it contains many healing properties that provide feelings of stimulation and joy.

McKenzie Raymond (40:42):

While SoulLift Cacao provides a variety of direct-trade cacao products. I’m biased towards heart of the earth blend because during my time in Lake Atitlan in Guatemala, I had the privilege of visiting this incredible women’s collective and feeling the love that is infused from bean to block.

Jessica Armstrong (40:59):

I know you’ve used cacao, mostly ceremonial and I enjoy using cacao even to supplement my caffeine intake. Not only does cacao provide me with a more grounded stimulation, but I love knowing that my purchase is going directly towards supporting indigenous communities.

McKenzie Raymond (41:16):

Use the link in our show notes to purchase your own ceremonial-grade cacao today. Be sure to use our code Good Enough at checkout to support the show and receive a discount. Stay tuned for opportunities to indulge in this incredible medicine collectively with our virtual cacao ceremonies coming soon.

[Music Playing]

McKenzie Raymond (41:34):

What a beautiful example of how closely tied addiction is to boundaries. Like that’s something in my own journey as I learned to balance my relationship with alcohol.

McKenzie Raymond (41:46):

I also had to really like find some firmer boundaries right around my relationships, around like you were saying, not compromising your healing and your sobriety. Knowing that it’s okay if your immediate or blood family can’t give you that support. Like you can lean on some friends or look outside.

McKenzie Raymond (42:14):

Like it’s crazy to think you and I too, like this relationship that we have and it hasn’t even been that long. It’s just so cool because I feel like I’ve known you for a lifetime. And so, I think when we can find people where we really connect in this deep vulnerable way, it’s like easier to go there faster.

McKenzie Raymond (42:35):

And so, not being afraid to also know that like, yes, your family’s your family, you can love them, they will always be. And also, if they’re not able to give you what you need in your healing journey, that’s okay too.

McKenzie Raymond (42:49):

And that there’s other avenues too. Like I know there’s tons of support groups. Of course, therapy’s always an option. Friends, finding some of those sober activities.

McKenzie Raymond (43:00):

I know there’s even like an app where you can basically find friends to like connect and like go to a museum or like things other than just going to a bar. Yeah, I think that’s amazing.

McKenzie Raymond (43:14):

I also think you’re really setting that boundary when you’re saying, “Hey, do you have any tea? Or can we just heat up some hot water?”

McKenzie Raymond (43:24):

You’re not only kind of creating your plan and letting them know the expectation, but you’re really making sure you feel good and secure in how you’ll get to enjoy yourself as well.

McKenzie Raymond (43:38):

That’s something that’s been really important to me in my sobriety is still having something to drink. Like I would love to get some mocktail and still have it in the fun martini glass and feel like I’m a part of the celebration.

McKenzie Raymond (43:55):

As silly as it can feel like, a little garnish can go such a long way. And it’s like I deserve to feel special with my little sprig of rosemary in there, even though there’s no alcohol in there.

McKenzie Raymond (44:09):

And so, I think just like finding what feels good for you, whether it’s tea or a mocktail. Some of my other things that I’ve love to experiment with are cacao, which is a stimulant.

McKenzie Raymond (44:23):

I know you mentioned caffeine, so like also another great option if you’re not going to be indulging in alcohol. Just another way to kind of feel like you’re a part of the family.

McKenzie Raymond (44:34):

I love experimenting with psilocybin, microdosing, CBD, cannabis, hemp, just other alternatives. And I have found that not only do I have like so much more clarity in my actual experience as I’m in it, but then following up, I feel like I just gained so much more.

McKenzie Raymond (45:00):

Like it’s almost like with alcohol, I felt like I was putting in all this effort to like get this thing that made me feel like shit. And then it was just this cycle because it’s a depressant, and then I would eat and drink and not care. And whereas it’s like these other things just feel so much more balanced and more sustainable.

McKenzie Raymond (45:19):

And I think too, like being able to just introduce these other things to your friends and family, and maybe they’re not open to them as you’re first becoming sober. Like introducing this idea of being sober curious.

McKenzie Raymond (45:36):

But as you continue on your journey, I know for myself, like it’s become much easier to just throw it out there and say like, “Hey, we could do this instead.” Even if this other person does typically drink, to have an alternative where I think it can feel like you’re in it more together.

McKenzie Raymond (45:55):

Because that’s definitely something I know when you said, yeah, it felt like my soberness like didn’t fit anymore in that environment. Like I really connected with that. And it’s like in each of our relationships, I think that can resonate in a way too of like, “So, how does this work now, if we’re not going to go out and have brunch and mimosas?”

McKenzie Raymond (46:17):

And so, it’s like it can feel a little clunky and uncomfortable at first, but I think having other fun, safe alternatives can just be, I’ve had a lot of fun and just really helped my relationships to evolve as I’ve been on my own healing journey and like invite these people to come on in and we can have fun in a new way.

Jessica Armstrong (46:40):

Yeah. And on that point, it’s never too late to find the right tribe. Like I know that it can feel that way. And I’m 38 and I’m just now, feeling like I have a really awesome tribe around me, but I now, know also what I’m looking for in that support system.

Jessica Armstrong (47:04):

And that’s why McKenzie and I are starting doing support circles through this, in which we will be talking more about gathering with people who are supportive, nurturing, and you can talk about things and be vulnerable. Like the things that are really important.

Jessica Armstrong (47:25):

I think we don’t realize how much we miss out on sharing and being vulnerable and what that does to our body. It’s just kind of like alcohol, alcohol’s not good for your body. It’s not good. It’s very toxic. Those things that you create just mentally in your mind and the voices that come in.

Jessica Armstrong (47:51):

If you had a really bad event happen while you were drinking, that’s something that’s now, going to just live inside of you and you have all of this toxicity. And then you’re not being vulnerable because you’re putting all of that in.

Jessica Armstrong (48:06):

And usually, I know with my experience, sometimes it would come out in these really bad ways because it’d all be hidden and I’m just like picturing this like toxic thing in my body just growing. And it’s really taking over the amazing parts of me.

Jessica Armstrong (48:25):

And with the alternatives, I think it’s important to understand because for me, when I stopped drinking, I needed coffee to sip on like constantly. That was something that really saved me at the time.

Jessica Armstrong (48:44):

Of course, then I was drinking coffee way too much. It was definitely better than alcohol, but I ended up moving to cacao, which is what I drank for my caffeine in the morning. And it’s very heart opening and you do feel really connected. It really gives you a different kind of feeling and evolution of energy through the day.

Jessica Armstrong (49:09):

And I think that’s important to note because just like these other alternatives, like THC, CBD, psilocybin, these things are naturally occurring medicines. And I know my experience with them has always been about connecting more with myself and learning more about myself.

Jessica Armstrong (49:33):

And so, the big difference here is really that why are we using, why is this thing becoming part of our lives and is it positive or negative? So, it’s really about that.

Jessica Armstrong (49:52):

And natural thing versus the toxic stuff, that’s how we should be viewing everything. Our toxic relationships, the toxic food, just everything that we’re filling ourselves up with.

McKenzie Raymond (50:11):

Yeah. It’s like alcohol is a poison and just because it’s societally accepted and enforced doesn’t make it good.

McKenzie Raymond (50:21):

And I think these other modalities that we’ve mentioned, there’s like this different level of respect that I have for them where like you were saying, it really is this way to connect more with myself or nature and the universe, so I am not just going to that extreme use either.

McKenzie Raymond (50:42):

Like I’ve definitely learned how to have moderation and respect these plants and change my relationship versus like how I treated alcohol.

Jessica Armstrong (50:54):

You’re not trying to block everything out or change how you’re showing up for yourself.

McKenzie Raymond (51:02):

Exactly. And I think also, like my whole sobriety journey, there has been such an overarching theme of forgiveness. And whether that is forgiveness for myself, or the way that I’ve treated my body, or the damage that I’ve probably caused in my liver that is still probably processing. I’m like all these different levels of forgiveness.

McKenzie Raymond (51:29):

I think even as you were talking about your relationships maybe with friends or family that I did challenge them in a way where they weren’t able to show up, forgiving them too, like it’s okay they weren’t there, they weren’t ready.

McKenzie Raymond (51:43):

And just knowing that if and when we’re meant to rekindle and reconnect, that that can happen. When I think that if that does happen, it’s really cool because it’s like this whole next level that they’re ready to kind of like meet you at. At least that’s how it feels for me.

McKenzie Raymond (52:02):

So, yeah, just forgiveness in general, like being gentle. I think what you brought up about shame and guilt, like it’s so tied in with addiction and everything that we’re talking about here. And I feel like I’m still forgiving myself for the years of destruction that I caused. But I’m also really like … I think true forgiveness is letting it go.

McKenzie Raymond (52:28):

So, letting it go, letting it be a part of my past. I know that for both you and I, we would not change those nights in jail or the DUIs. And even though they weren’t our classiest moments and we were self-sabotaging rebels, just letting it be a part of our story that has really been like a catalyst to help us get to where we are now.

Jessica Armstrong (52:54):

Oh my gosh. Yeah, a hundred percent. I think forgiving my part that was fueling the alcohol use, I think forgiving that time in my life, forgiving myself during that time, like that was a pretty big deal for me.

Jessica Armstrong (53:12):

And it was such a release, it was such a way to let go. And because it’s just another part of myself that I’m going to love unconditionally, that’s my practice now. And really, that part’s been with me through it all.

Jessica Armstrong (53:36):

And like you said, it really got me to, I think, spread the message around this because there is more to addiction than just addiction.

Jessica Armstrong (53:49):

There’s more to how we can be in our relationships around substance abuse, around past traumas, around family traumas. How we can go more without judgment, and shame, and guilt. And show up with more forgiveness, and be more gentle and loving, and ask the questions.

Jessica Armstrong (54:14):

And know that the uncomfortableness is not a permanent way of being. Like we’re not going to always be in that uncomfort. And so, utilize it. Utilize it to find a way out that feels good for everybody.

McKenzie Raymond (54:35):

Yeah, yeah. Showing up sober in a mostly drunk world as it feels for me, definitely takes some serious courage.

Jessica Armstrong (54:44):

Yes.

McKenzie Raymond (54:44):

So, being gentle, taking that extra self care, whatever that is. You do need to like remove yourself from the situation.

McKenzie Raymond (54:56):

But yeah, I think like for me, it really feels like as I show up sober in these different relationships and environments, getting to be like this little beam of hope and light, and to just open that safe space that someone else can even know that maybe tonight they don’t have to go as hard because I am inviting them not to in a way.

McKenzie Raymond (55:23):

And I think just staying true to that and doing the self-care, even if and when it feels a little bit selfish, that allows you to stay on this steady path of healing.

McKenzie Raymond (55:41):

Like as you were describing your discomfort and how it felt like you just didn’t fit in anymore. It’s like now, that gets to be a story of evidence of like what you were able to make it through and how resilient you were and how strong you were.

McKenzie Raymond (55:59):

And so, I think like every time we do that, we’re just creating this stronger habit where almost stepping more into this new version of ourself, of this role that we’re playing in the world to be a light, to be someone who’s sober, and connected, and intuitive, and emotional.

McKenzie Raymond (56:19):

So, yeah, thank you for just being such a beautiful example of that for me and for our listeners. And I’m just so grateful for our relationship and for really a lot of the relationships in my personal life that have evolved in this beautiful way since making this personal choice.

Jessica Armstrong (56:39):

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing your part, being vulnerable, and I love that we can connect on those things. And my thing is that you really are somebody who provides a good foundation for people and invites them in to finding these new ways.

Jessica Armstrong (57:03):

And I feel like you were a big catalyst of that for me when I was kind of coming in from this transitional moment and I was really looking for somebody like you to have these conversations with. And you made that very welcoming and open and it always felt like a safe space. And I’m very grateful.

McKenzie Raymond (57:29):

Oh, me too. And how cool that now, we can create this space for hopefully many other individuals who are looking for support and connection.

McKenzie Raymond (57:42):

I think for me, especially right in the beginning of my journey to even know that like some of these things that I was feeling or going through, it wasn’t just me, but that other people have felt similarly. To just connect in this very human way, it was so healing and of course continues to be so incredibly healing.

McKenzie Raymond (58:04):

So, we’ve dropped a couple hints, but I’m just super excited about more of those collective gatherings that are going to be coming your way and really getting to be accountability partners for one another, just like you and I are Jessica, but with our listeners as well.

McKenzie Raymond (58:22):

And really create this like safety net of support, and love, and sobriety, if that’s what you want.

Jessica Armstrong (58:31):

Yeah. And yeah, the empowerment that’s in there too. Being able to feel connected, feel heard, as well as hearing from other women that you are special and amazing just the way you are. And that’s really what I love about getting together with my tribe and other support systems.

Jessica Armstrong (58:52):

So, yeah, it’ll be really exciting when we get to grow that here for that space.

McKenzie Raymond (58:59):

Well, thanks again. I hope you all have a beautiful week, and we’ll see you next week.

Jessica Armstrong (59:05):

Bye, everyone.

[Music Playing]

McKenzie Raymond (59:09):

We know this time is precious to you and because we are insanely joyful that you are spending it with us, we always want to deliver authentic vulnerability and dive deep into what we are feeling as a collective.

Jessica Armstrong (59:22):

Our intention is to bring you stories and guests that provide you the opportunity to discover aha moments so you leave our conversations feeling lighter and knowing what you do today will be good enough.

McKenzie Raymond (59:35):

We love to connect, follow us on social media by following our handles linked in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, rate, review and follow the Good Enough Podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, or your favorite podcast listening app, so you never miss an episode.