13: Exchange: The Art of Giving and Receiving

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Jessica Armstrong (00:00):

Welcome to the Good Enough Podcast, a podcast that takes you into a new realm by inviting you to reduce your daily hustle and celebrate yourself right here.

McKenzie Raymond (00:14):

Tune in as we dive deep into vulnerable topics and interview guests who deliver transformative moments to you, our community of individuals healing on a collective journey.

Jessica Armstrong (00:25):

We’ll open up to the art of embodied self-care, and even on the days that you feel like a self-sabotaging rebel …

McKenzie Raymond (00:32):

We’re here to remind you that in this realm, we are all good enough.

Jessica Armstrong (00:39):

Hi everyone, welcome to the Good Enough Podcast. It’s me, Jessica Armstrong, and I am here with McKenzie Raymond. How are you, McKenzie?

McKenzie Raymond (00:50):

Hey, Jessica. As one of our recent guests said, “I am amazing regardless.”

Jessica Armstrong (00:57):

Yes, I am amazing regardless.

McKenzie Raymond (00:59):

I loved that. Regardless of the piles of laundry and the barking dogs, and whatever else is happening behind the scenes here — “amazing regardless,” it’s like one of my new favorite things.

Jessica Armstrong (01:14):

I’ve been using it for sure, yes. And every time I say it, I can feel that energy from her as well. And it just feels so powerful because it makes you … you really think like, “Oh, wow, I can give that to myself,” which is a perfect segue into our topic today.

Jessica Armstrong (01:36):

We really wanted to dive into this as the holiday seasons are coming around and we’re going to be experiencing the ideas around giving and receiving, and we wanted to dive into that and talk about how it relates with us and some ways that we can enjoy it more.

McKenzie Raymond (01:58):

Definitely, yes. The art of giving and receiving, we want to dive into today with each of you. It’s something that Jessica, you and I were talking about just kind of organically, like as we do with our normal friendly conversation, but we’re like, “Okay, we should record an episode on this.”

McKenzie Raymond (02:18):

Because I know for myself, it’s something that like it’s probably … hopefully, other people get this too, but like it almost sounds silly to even admit to myself. It’s totally something that I’ve had to learn how to do, is to I would say receive more than give, but with grace. Like how do I learn how to receive in a grateful, graceful way. So, we’re going to dive more into that today.

Jessica Armstrong (02:43):

It’s interesting that you mentioned the receiving being so hard when I know when I give, I just feel so amazing. I’m really excited, especially for me, if I see something that I’m like, “Oh my gosh, McKenzie would totally love this, or wow, this has her vibe all over it, I just have to get it for her. She’s going to love it.”

Jessica Armstrong (03:05):

That for me is so exciting, but yet when I’ve received things, there’s often that wall that comes up, which is probably a result of all kinds of things. But it makes it hard for me to feel as comfortable in receiving gifts from others or even people helping me or supporting me in a way that it’s almost like a … it feels like a burden maybe, or feeling like I’m not thankful enough.

Jessica Armstrong (03:40):

It’s like how do you even express that? I feel like for me, I’m constantly just giving myself a hard time about how I’m reacting to these wonderful things that are being given to me. And I’m sure I’m reacting just fine because I’m coming from this place of just complete like oh that, they’re doing this. Like, “Oh my gosh, how thoughtful of you.”

Jessica Armstrong (04:03):

Yet there’s all of these things that kind of come into it, and I really want them to understand how appreciative I am. Yet certain situations, even maybe relationships with that person or possibly the gift that’s being given to you has some holds on it, maybe some things that are not as genuine.

McKenzie Raymond (04:33):

And honestly, even in your share right there, I feel like these dots just connected of how closely tied enoughness is to this topic because exactly what you just described, is like, “Am I not going to be receiving it receiving well enough or joyfully enough or whatever that pressure is.”

McKenzie Raymond (04:55):

But then on the flip side, to me, what it sounds like total ease in giving gifts and finding that joy and excitement. And it made me think of just recently when you were here visiting and I had a couple pieces of art that I still love, but they just don’t feel like they fit into my space really anymore. I feel like art is one of those things that really means a lot to me, and I do have kind of some kind of tie to it.

McKenzie Raymond (05:23):

So, giving it to someone who’s also really going to appreciate it felt so good and getting to just show them to you these beautiful pieces of art and just have a genuine conversation like, “Hey, do you like any of these?” And if not, I’m also not offended at all, but I really want them to go into a home where they’re appreciated.

McKenzie Raymond (05:42):

And so, that felt so good to be able to give you a beautiful piece of art. And it’s kind of fun because the artwork and the artist are back in right where you live, so it traveled back home, which is kind of fun.

Jessica Armstrong (05:59):

And I have it. It actually went perfectly with a couple things that I have on my dresser in my bedroom, like the colors and everything. So, I was like, “Oh, this goes perfect right here.” And yeah, I love it. And the way that you were giving was very respectful of my receiving. There’s no strings attached. Like you don’t have to have these if you don’t want them or they don’t speak to you.

Jessica Armstrong (06:30):

And even your kind words about, I want them to go to somebody who would appreciate them, that lets me know as well why you’re giving it to me and that I am worthy of the gift and it just makes it easier.

Jessica Armstrong (06:45):

I think if we approached things like that, even though because it’s become such a social norm and there’s kind of these pressures around when and how and what we’re giving that I think we forget to have these conversations that are real and genuine with people around it, and even with ourselves, like what is the expectation I have around giving this?

Jessica Armstrong (07:13):

What is my reasoning really behind giving this? Is this something that feels really good to me to be doing? But also, is it going to be good for the — is my intention also good for the other person? And when we don’t put that into the conversation, I think we lose that connection around what giving and receiving even is, and to be able to talk so openly.

Jessica Armstrong (07:43):

And it’s easier of course with you and I, because we’re very comfortable with each other. We’re easily vulnerable around each other, and we’re not going to take offense to things like that. And I think often that’s unfortunately what we may be expecting is to have this defensiveness or, “How dare you not like this gift that I’ve given you” or “You didn’t love this gift enough.”

Jessica Armstrong (08:08):

Just those things that we really put on, all these pressures that we really put on this whole thing that’s supposed to be a positive experience, but because we’ve lost the conversations around it and hearing people and hearing what they even want or need with that was what made me more comfortable was you having that conversation with me.

Jessica Armstrong (08:32):

It was super simple, but it really gave me a safe space to receive as well as to say, “I’m okay. I don’t need that.” And I knew you were not going to be upset.

McKenzie Raymond (08:43):

Totally. And it felt really good for me to be more intentional than to just go ahead and donate it because that’s usually how I do my giving. If I bring in some new clothes or something, I’m like, okay, I like to donate and just kind of have it be this cyclical thing. And I think really that’s what giving and receiving is to me.

McKenzie Raymond (09:04):

And I think we can look at it collectively as this exchange of energy between two people, and as you were explaining, the societal norms and kind of some of that pressure that sometimes it might make it hard to feel like you can receive, I think I definitely used to be in that place. And I think a lot of it, now, in hindsight, I can see was like a reflection of where I was at in my own life.

McKenzie Raymond (09:35):

Like a feeling maybe a little bit more restrictive or like, “Ooh, I can’t give,” so it feels harder to receive. And I think I have definitely had to learn. I’ve had a really amazing teacher in learning to receive with gratitude and grace. And my godfather, my uncle Dan, he lives out in California and I call him my fairy godfather, he is just amazing.

McKenzie Raymond (10:01):

He actually used to live just outside of San Diego and then now lives in Palm Springs with his partner. But he would always just tell me to bring my girlfriends down and he would legit just give me his keys to his car, let us go do whatever we wanted, have so much fun, go to Pacific and Mission Beach and just do what you do in California.

McKenzie Raymond (10:26):

And he gave with such excitement. If I could just explain my Uncle Dan, if you’ve ever had the privilege of meeting him, I can’t even really describe him. He’s like a mix between a golden retriever and he also kind of … he’s like this huge guy. So, he in some ways sometimes reminds me of Will Ferrell.

McKenzie Raymond (10:55):

He’s just so happy and the love is so freaking pure, and it’s not only would he give us his car to go bum around him, but he would let us stay at his house, and there would be a handwritten card in the car with 20 bucks to go spend for the next tank of gas or just those really thoughtful, amazing, loving things.

Jessica Armstrong (11:18):

He was a buddy, like a-

McKenzie Raymond (11:20):

Oh, my gosh.

Jessica Armstrong (11:21):

He sounds like one of the kind of person that attracts people too. He’s a gatherer, people like to gather around him, that’s what I’m picturing.

McKenzie Raymond (11:32):

And he just has such positive, cheerful, joyful energy that I think he does attract people because he is so incredible. But yeah, my Uncle Dan really taught me how to receive. We would go out to dinner, my girlfriends and I, and we’d go to pay for the check and there would be $100 already taken care of or the whole bill, someone had called and paid for it.

McKenzie Raymond (11:57):

And just to go home and be able to genuinely thank him and give him a big hug and receive that, it was something I had to learn. But I think it made it easier knowing and seeing how much joy it brought him to be giving those things. Because that’s a perfect example of someone who’s not ill-intentioned, someone who really is giving from this pure, loving place.

McKenzie Raymond (12:26):

And so, to be able to receive that with that same level of joy, I think I had to learn over time because at first, I’d be like, “Uncle Dan, you did not have to do that.” And then I realized I was really kind of almost in some ways, diminishing the whole gift of what he was trying to give me.

McKenzie Raymond (12:46):

Like had I gone home given him a big hug and said, “Thank you so much. You have no idea how much this means to me or I love our relationship or whatever.” I had to reflect back. Opposed to being like, “Oh you didn’t have to,” feeling uncomfortable.

McKenzie Raymond (13:03):

And again, really becomes a gift when we can learn how to receive with gratitude, and it becomes a gift for both the person who’s giving and receiving to be able to say thank you and reflect that love back.

Jessica Armstrong (13:18):

And how beautiful to have that example in your life too, I love that. I love being able to see someone genuinely giving is really special because it’s something that we almost need to learn as we’re growing or at least experience somebody doing.

Jessica Armstrong (13:40):

And it’s interesting about the, “You didn’t have to do that kind of thing.” Because at some point it must have become a social norm to do that and some way of saying like, “Oh, you didn’t have to go out of your way like that.” And maybe at some point it didn’t … and even now it doesn’t have a … it’s not necessarily negative, but it feels dismissive to the person who’s giving.

Jessica Armstrong (14:08):

I know for me, it definitely does. I try not to take it that way, but it definitely feels like that at times. Especially when you put a lot of care into it. And again, it’s just kind of a reminder like, “Hey, this is just how certain people receive things and that’s okay.” But for me, it feels like it’s again, this disconnection.

Jessica Armstrong (14:33):

Either you’re not being honest about how much you dislike maybe the gift that they’re giving, or you’re not being honest with yourself about how to just say, hey thanks and just take it, and enjoy it, and be able to just be thankful and grateful, and not feel like you have to explain or go further.

Jessica Armstrong (15:01):

It’s like this idea of having to kind of be the nicest one. Like who’s going to be the nicest one here when really it’s just the act in itself.

McKenzie Raymond (15:16):

And to be on the other side of that, like you were saying, it just feels dismissive, and I think that’s such a great way of putting it. Because it feels like this person is not receiving what you are giving. It feels like, “Oh, wait, you didn’t have to though.” And I think this to me just feels like a perfect opportunity for it to be a teaching moment for all of us.

McKenzie Raymond (15:39):

So, I want to catch myself the next time I say, “Oh, my gosh, you did not have to do that or whatever,” however I put it. And I think also, letting it be a teaching moment when I hear it next time, because also, that’s going to happen.

McKenzie Raymond (15:55):

And if I’m in a situation where I’m comfortable enough with that person to just share with them what I’ve learned about giving and receiving, and that maybe it’s me that’s giving and they say, “Oh, actually I’m good.” And then saying, because sometimes I’ll catch myself then saying, “But I really wanted to,” and then in that even maybe elaborating a little bit.

McKenzie Raymond (16:18):

It feels really good to get to give and have you receive it with a thank you. And then just even plant that seed and then maybe they’ll say, “Wow, thank you,” and thank you for that next little tip that maybe they can carry on as well.

Jessica Armstrong (16:33):

That is such a great tip. Honestly, I love the way that you put that because it doesn’t put anybody out. It’s literally you’re just saying, “I want you to receive this and be able to just feel thankful for it and not feel like you have to give anything back or let me know that I didn’t have to do that for you. I don’t want you to have to take on any pressures from this gift that I’m giving you.”

Jessica Armstrong (17:00):

And I think that’s a really good way to put it because you’re giving them permission to accept it with grace and there’s nothing expected in return, which is the beauty of gift giving at its finest.

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McKenzie Raymond (17:19):

Before we get too much farther along in today’s episode, I want to do a brief check-in and ask our listeners a few powerful questions. I’m curious if any of you are currently feeling stuck in your personal or professional life, struggling with self-doubt or feeling lost as you search for a deeper sense of purpose.

McKenzie Raymond (17:37):

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McKenzie Raymond (17:59):

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McKenzie Raymond (18:20):

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Jessica Armstrong (18:42):

For me, I think having traditional gift giving has always been hard because the way that I — and we were talking about love languages earlier; I love to express my love to people through affirmations. I love receiving affirmations, I like exchanging those kind of things with people because I think we all want to hear more positive, wonderful things about ourselves.

Jessica Armstrong (19:07):

But with gift giving, I love to be able to do it more spontaneously and there’s nothing, there’s no pressure around it. So, traditional gift giving, meaning around holidays, and it feels like a lot of pressure because even at the age I am, still having to be asked what I want for Christmas and being able to even when I say, “I’m good I don’t need anything.”

Jessica Armstrong (19:41):

Mostly because I don’t want to feel obligated to buy gifts and give to … when it’s just not the right time maybe or there’s so much going on that I’m not in the space of finding something for you. There’s all kinds of reasons.

Jessica Armstrong (20:02):

And as we age and we have things to pay for and our own family gets bigger, there’s a point where maybe we just can’t give as much as others. So, then it just becomes this big pressure and it really shouldn’t be that way. It’s supposed to be a happy, joyous time.

Jessica Armstrong (20:23):

And not saying that it can’t be, and I know there are families out there who have great time sharing gifts. But for me for a long time, it just never aligned with how I like to give, how I like to show my love, how I like to be there for people, and how I like to show up.

Jessica Armstrong (20:43):

And I also don’t appreciate when I’m pressured to receive regardless of my intentions that I had already set of really not wanting to receive in that way. And it’s really not knowing how to evolve beyond that, I think.

McKenzie Raymond (21:04):

Well, I think you nailed it on the head. With around the holidays, a lot of that giving to me feels like it’s obligation and pressure because there’s this … hopefully, there’s no kids listening, but imaginary character coming down the chimney, so we all got to fill our living rooms even though we already have more than enough.

McKenzie Raymond (21:26):

And so, I think it’s the difference in that versus — it’s just so funny. For me, I totally resonate with what you were saying around the spontaneous giving. So, let’s say that it’s August, September, you find something and you’re like, “Oh, this totally reminds me of whoever, I can’t wait to give it to them.”

McKenzie Raymond (21:46):

I know people who legit will be added to their Christmas pile, it’s like, no. To me, it does feel more special to just get a spontaneous gift on a random Tuesday afternoon. And why do we have to wait for it to be for Christmas? Or for some other reason, it can’t just be like, “Oh, I saw this and thought of you.”

McKenzie Raymond (22:07):

I also think just being able to tune in, like when it is getting around the holidays and there’s this collective pressure and all the different — everyone’s talking about presents, and giving and receiving, and I think checking in with like … I mean, if you want to be a part of that and maybe you do have a tradition with your friends or family and you give gifts, doing that in a way that feels really good.

McKenzie Raymond (22:40):

Creating maybe even some new traditions or if gift-giving is important to your loved ones, also like honoring that for them. Because I’m similar in the sense where I’m like, okay, I would rather just not receive more fuzzy slippers and socks and save that money for a cool trip or budget for something that’s a little bit further out and maybe a higher ticket item, but not get those little things.

McKenzie Raymond (23:07):

Whereas a lot of my friends and family, they really appreciate the gifts and they’re the people who are like, “Oh my gosh,” finding the things in August. And I’m like, “I haven’t even thought about Christmas.” And so, it’s like, okay.

Jessica Armstrong (23:20):

That’s because they’re adding it to the Christmas pile list. They’re getting it laid.

McKenzie Raymond (23:24):

Exactly. But it’s just like how do we find that middle ground and that balance because it brings them a lot of joy for me to receive their gifts as well. So, I think also, it really reminds me of the four agreements; two of the agreements, one is don’t take anything personally, and another one of my favorites is don’t make assumptions.

McKenzie Raymond (23:48):

So, however this person is receiving the gift, keeping that in mind, not assuming, “Wow, okay, this person wasn’t completely overjoyed or they responded totally different than I would’ve have.” Not taking that personally, not making assumptions about what that means about your gift or who you are, your relationship.

McKenzie Raymond (24:10):

Just knowing that we all have this different relationship with, I think giving and receiving, but it seems collectively maybe even receiving more. Because for a lot of us, giving women especially comes easier for women to give, I think, than to receive. And so, it becomes something that we do have to learn.

McKenzie Raymond (24:33):

And I think too, bringing some acceptance to however the gift is received, kind of letting go of that expectation of not being attached to the outcome or … I think that’s how we get rid of those imaginary strengths that are creating the pressure that make us feel like, “Oh God, no, I have to give them something. Or what does this mean? Or whatever.”

McKenzie Raymond (24:59):

It’s just like if we’re giving something from a place of love and not attached to the outcome, I think that’s maybe where we can start to find this balance again.

Jessica Armstrong (25:13):

I mean, what a great way to almost counterpoint what I would … because it actually is really helping my mindset right now even around that is that, and it’s really about being comfortable with you and who you are inside. And that is always something that I know myself I’m always working on.

Jessica Armstrong (25:39):

And I know that that can be a good foundation for situations like this where maybe the way somebody else gives isn’t really the way that I would like to receive. However, maybe I’m putting a lot of pressure on myself around how I’m receiving it, and then I’m putting that on the gift being given.

Jessica Armstrong (26:04):

And whether or not the gift is coming from any type of space, I mean it doesn’t … whether it’s love or tradition or randomly, it just should be able to be accepted for what it is. And that I also can give myself permission to not feel pressured to return the favor and I can receive it with thanks and just let that be.

Jessica Armstrong (26:34):

And I don’t have to put pressure on how I’m receiving something. I don’t have to react to how they react because everybody’s … and this is something that you’ve said to me, a lot of times — everybody’s truth is going to be different because we’re coming from different internal spaces and external experiences. So, it’s okay, somebody else’s truth can be theirs.

Jessica Armstrong (27:02):

Like this is important to them that they knock out everybody on their list for gifts for Christmas, that’s when they give, they plan for it. It feels good for them at the time. And regardless, that’s something that they need to do. And I can honor that by just really not needing to take it on as a way that I need to give or receive.

Jessica Armstrong (27:29):

And I can, like I do with my sisters, give them their Christmas gifts in May or June, but that’s when I find really special things to give them. But yes, it’s the fact that we can each have our own truths, our own way of doing things.

Jessica Armstrong (27:46):

And if we can, being able to have conversations around it is always nice. But if we can’t, to just understand that their way of giving and receiving is okay, and same with ourselves, we don’t have to react back or take it personally, which is not always easy.

McKenzie Raymond (28:07):

I mean, I honestly can’t think of a more perfect example of enough to be able to receive a gift that someone else wants to give with thanks, that’s your job. Receive it with thanks, with grace, with gratitude. I mean, and that’s it and receive it. That’s it, it ends there. Let it go.

Jessica Armstrong (28:32):

What a relief. And you can allow it then to just be something positive. If anything, it’s just that little glimmer of gratitude has sparked up that happiness, that joy that we have, our dopamine and serotonin, or all the feel good stuff.

McKenzie Raymond (28:54):

And I mean, think about … like what I’m thinking about is the difference in how the person that’s giving you a gift will feel and when you’re receiving it in that more open and grateful way. I just wonder how that dynamic will shift because it only takes one of us in a relationship to shift that dynamic. So, I’m just curious this season how things might be different for you and I’m excited to hear.

Jessica Armstrong (29:22):

I have been really excited about this holiday season. Another thing is about giving and receiving because I want to become more comfortable with it because my husband and his family, since they do live in the same state and we can actually see them on the holidays …

Jessica Armstrong (29:41):

And Travis’s sister has a kid now, so his parents are grandparents, and so it’s just like — and they love to get together for the holidays and open presents and everything, and they are very expressive with their love and their joy and their gratitude.

Jessica Armstrong (30:01):

And perhaps, it’s something … I know when we first started dating, it was a little overwhelming for me, mostly because I just wasn’t used to having that much excited energy around the gift-giving. And I know for me, I always felt pressured around what I was going to receive, and now, I have to kind of perform in front of everybody.

Jessica Armstrong (30:27):

And I say perform as in the meaning. I felt like I had to go above and beyond to make sure they really understood that I was thankful for their gift. Even though I was, I just always put too much energy into it, which was usually draining for me.

McKenzie Raymond (30:47):

It didn’t feel like enough. No matter what you did.

Jessica Armstrong (30:50):

And I think that was … if anything, Travis’s family has taught me how to receive and give in a better way. And so, it’s been important for me to practice this because I really want to be able to enjoy that family space and be with them in that way, and just enjoy it and not put pressure on it. Even if I showed up with nothing to give, they would still be so joyful that we were just even there.

Jessica Armstrong (31:21):

And then we’re back at that kind of genuine, authentic love, and just being grateful that me and Travis showed up and were there with the family on Christmas, and being able to accept that I think was hard at first for me. And it was a lot of anxiety around it and thinking that I’m not going to be good enough. And then even going to some of his family events was really hard for me.

Jessica Armstrong (31:53):

And it’s not that I didn’t want to be there, it’s just my makeup and my experiences did not allow that to be a comfortable space, no matter how comfortable they tried to make it for me. So, really, and a lot of that just became with practice and being able to learn how to stay in my flow and not allowing kind of past experiences to influence having a good time with my family, but sometimes it’s better than others.

Jessica Armstrong (32:27):

But I’m really excited about this year and I don’t know why, but I can just feel this really good energy. I’m excited to see them around Christmas and yeah, I think it’ll be great. I like to be able to see it that way now.

McKenzie Raymond (32:41):

Totally. Well, I want to acknowledge you for being open to it being different. And I know the work that you’ve put in and it sounds like throughout the process, even though you initially felt overwhelmed by the whole family Christmas and especially involving a whole nother family, coming into those dynamics, I think it sounds like you really were, and still do practice self-care and do what you need during those times.

McKenzie Raymond (33:09):

And so, I really want to acknowledge you for also being open to those relationships changing. Because what I heard you say is like, I really want to enjoy the holidays, and I really want to be able to spend time with family that’s here in the same state.

McKenzie Raymond (33:26):

And so, your own openness to these things changing, I think says a lot. And I think that’s a huge part in the pattern changing, is that you’ve continued to kind of put yourself in these sometimes uncomfortable situation so that you can grow and evolve.

McKenzie Raymond (33:44):

And you said, “I don’t know why, but this year, it’s just different.” Well, I wonder how many years it’s been that you’ve now been working towards this. And I believe that even in this conversation we just busted through more of this shit that’s been kind of laying there dormant.

Jessica Armstrong (34:05):

Maybe we would, I was like-

McKenzie Raymond (34:06):

I’m super excited.

Jessica Armstrong (34:07):

I was like something’s going to come up more for me around it. And yeah, it’s really about finding the joy, but also finding the comfort and safety, which is something I have to do internally because it doesn’t really matter where you are. If you’re not comfortable in that space, then it’s going to be hard to adjust how you are or feel comfortable in other places.

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Jessica Armstrong (34:35):

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Jessica Armstrong (35:47):

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McKenzie Raymond (36:04):

Who knows, maybe we’ll see you there.

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Jessica Armstrong (36:09):

For me, it was really not wanting to feel anxious and feel like I couldn’t be a part of things or feel like I was running away, like there was some kind of fear. It’s like all of these things that I just really got tired of being, you’re missing out on things. People are your connection into this whole experience that we’re going through here together.

Jessica Armstrong (36:38):

And my practice has really been based on finding more of that joy and that flow, and the acceptance, that’s a big one. And being on that journey and just always knowing that that’s a goal of mine, I think helped so much in my practice regardless of what I’m practicing at the time.

McKenzie Raymond (37:05):

Absolutely. And I’m glad you brought that up because we really can’t move into an emotion like joy without feeling safe and secure. So, finding that first, being able to do what you need, and if at that point it means showing up empty-handed, knowing that that’s enough too, and that your presence is the gift, that’s one of my favorite gifts.

McKenzie Raymond (37:29):

But I had to also learn that. I mean, just a couple weeks ago, I was walking into the yoga studio and had my hands totally empty and I’ve always been someone who likes to have a card or flowers or something to give, and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” And then I was going to be late if I stopped, and it was like this whole my chaotic moment.

McKenzie Raymond (37:53):

I’m like okay, or I could just be enough and I could even — I ended up even sharing the whole moment with my friends there and saying like, “This is my lesson and showing up empty-handed and that that’s enough. And I’m really trying, and this is really hard for me.”

McKenzie Raymond (38:12):

And I think too, if we look at it from kind of this bigger energetic standpoint, money, abundance, flow, gratitude, giving and receiving, all of it is energy, if we look at it from this bigger perspective. And so, I think that the more that we give and the more that we do put things out, the more that we can receive. And so, it does become this really important part, and I think it is this kind of cycle that feeds itself.

McKenzie Raymond (38:45):

I almost imagine one of those waterfalls that has the spinney thing and it’s just continuously pouring more water in. But if we’re not giving or receiving, then it’s just going to stand still too. And there’s times for that as well, don’t get me wrong. But I think also just even noticing when that cycle starts to pick up again, and maybe as you’re giving what you’re receiving, as you’re receiving what you’re giving, and just noticing that relationship there.

Jessica Armstrong (39:19):

And I loved that you said that exchange of energy because a lot of what we believe and a lot of what that energy or that we know we’re really energy that we’re collecting and passing on to others and we know that joy and happiness is that highest vibration.

Jessica Armstrong (39:41):

And even though we can’t be full of it all the time, the more we practice even giving some of that high vibration for me, if I can give somebody a compliment on what they’re wearing, or just say, “Oh, my gosh, it’s just a stranger.” Like, “I love your shoes today or something.”

Jessica Armstrong (40:02):

Like it’s me not only genuinely wanting to express that to them, but I also am passing on, I’m giving this joy, this overflow of joy that I have in that moment, and so that they can have it and hopefully, it’ll be passed on from there.

Jessica Armstrong (40:20):

And the more we can do that in the collective, and I think what we talk about and really what we get out of with coaching and with gathering in our sister circles and things like that, this is really what we’re trying to teach and learn, is that the more we can give and receive in that high energy and that joy and the more we share that with others in the collective, in our circles, in our home, it will give us that back and usually, much more than what we’ve even given out, and it’s really amazing.

McKenzie Raymond (41:07):

And what a great example of a free way to give and receive. I think so often giving and receiving, especially around the holidays can be so tied to monetary things. And going out in the world and sharing joy or cheer with someone, whether that’s someone you love or someone that you’re just passing on the street — like that exchange that you were just explaining … that I know we’ve talked about before on the podcast, but I forget myself too, that there are so many free gifts or gifts that we have within our own self that we can give and exchange this energy with someone else.

McKenzie Raymond (41:49):

I forget all the time that I can exchange reiki or life coaching or just hold space. And like you and I, we’ll have our two-hour long conversations between podcast episodes, where we’re just catching up and that’s energy exchange. So, thank you for that reminder because that’s such a great thing to keep in mind. We don’t even have to spend money as we’re doing this. We can take that pressure off completely if we want, and that’s enough too.

Jessica Armstrong (42:21):

Oh, yeah. I love the holding space thing too. Sometimes you don’t even realize that you’re doing it. I was at an acupuncturist appointment with my acupuncturist who I love. She’s really amazing. And she had shared with me that she had lost her senior cat, and that of course, to me was so sad.

Jessica Armstrong (42:43):

Because she told me, because she knows, I mean, I get it. I’m like there’s a reason witches had cats, they’re just amazing. And so, I knew her loss was big and I could tell that she had probably — there’s something that made me want to ask.

Jessica Armstrong (43:00):

And I think thankfully, because of our closeness, but also probably because she just needed to talk about it, she opened up to me, and I held while she was putting the needles in and I was just listening to her and letting her know how it’s just as important as losing anything because it’s something that you loved and that you lost that was great to you.

Jessica Armstrong (43:27):

And that’s what’s important here because I think even around that, it’s not a enough, our cat’s not enough of a loss to be completely devastated. It’s like, “No, you’re okay.” And even just being able to hold space for her during that time was a gift that I could give her.

Jessica Armstrong (43:44):

And then while she leaves me and lets me just be with the needles so that you can kind of have this time while your energy’s moving around, and I just started crying. Like it was such a relieving cry. Almost like I was able to kind of take on some of that sadness for her and transmute it into this nice release. Like it was very powerful. And I think that just came up in my mind right now. And you think about how that giving and receiving right there, you’re physically feeling it.

McKenzie Raymond (44:26):

That’s so powerful that like you and your acupuncturist even have that kind of a relationship and that I mean, I believe in the energetics of what you’re releasing for both of you of course. But in even her relief that came from that. And I know you’ve been just asking for more tears. So, here you go, baby, you get hers and yours.

Jessica Armstrong (44:51):

I know, I’m always looking for some good crying release.

McKenzie Raymond (44:58):

I love it. Oh my gosh. So, I am feeling just overjoyed for the exchange that you and I have during this time, and the giving and the receiving that we get out of this space as well — from our conversations, from our relationship, but also from this incredible platform getting to share and give and also receiving … I mean, just the kindest, most inspiring things to receive back from some of our listeners.

McKenzie Raymond (45:32):

So, thank you all as well for this incredible collaboration that’s been organically happening, the giving and the receiving. This is such a perfect example of something that feels really good and nourishing for I think/I hope both the people that are giving and receiving.

Jessica Armstrong (45:54):

And we really wanted to do the podcast because of how much you and I have been able to give and receive in our conversations before we started. And we knew it would be a powerful gift to give to others because it’s so important for us to be open and vulnerable, and have the conversations around these things that maybe we’re not sure how other people feel.

Jessica Armstrong (46:23):

And also, just getting a new perspective on how we can look at things and how can we ease the pressure from ourselves. Because ultimately, we want to find joy, fill our cup up, and then we can give, so we have to give to ourselves first.

McKenzie Raymond (46:44):

Absolutely. Jessica, I am so grateful for our time together as always. I would love to just ask you one little wrap up question for us to take away with us into the season. What is one of your takeaways, either from this call or something that maybe this call sparked that you’re going to be bringing into the chaotic busy season?

Jessica Armstrong (47:08):

Well, I think for one, I’m going to take kind of the same practice I had from last year, which is grace with myself, and really taking on what I know I can handle and feel good in. And from this conversation and really, just really getting a better understanding around the idea of giving and receiving it from a present type way, especially around the holidays.

Jessica Armstrong (47:37):

I think just understanding that we all come from different parts and our giving is going to look different than others. And that if we could honor it enough to just by saying thanks, or just by being present for it is going to be enough, and that I can go forward knowing that that’s my safety net, really.

McKenzie Raymond (48:04):

Beautiful. Thank you so much. I think my takeaway from today was really the reminder that showing up empty-handed is enough and it’s like I forgot that, and it just popped back in as we were talking today. So, that’s going to continue to be my practice.

McKenzie Raymond (48:24):

And I can’t promise I’m going everywhere this holiday season empty-handed. But I’m going to just notice when those thoughts come in, when I feel like I’m not enough if I am empty-handed and just let it continue to be this kind of evolution and this relationship.

Jessica Armstrong (48:42):

I love that.

McKenzie Raymond (48:43):

Thank you so much for your time. And yeah, if you’ve been enjoying the show, don’t forget to give us a follow on your favorite listening app, share the episode with a friend, and follow us over on our social media as well.

Jessica Armstrong (49:02):

Thanks everyone. Have a great day.

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McKenzie Raymond (49:07):

We know this time is precious to you and because we are insanely joyful that you are spending it with us, we always want to deliver authentic vulnerability and dive deep into what we are feeling as a collective.

Jessica Armstrong (49:20):

Our intention is to bring you stories and guests that provide you the opportunity to discover aha moments so you leave our conversations feeling lighter and knowing what you do today will be good enough.

McKenzie Raymond (49:33):

We love to connect, follow us on social media by following our handles linked in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, rate, review, and follow The Good Enough Podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, or your favorite podcast listening app, so you never miss an episode.